Water leak from block - Lots of questions - Help!?

[Joe Flanagan]

That's not what I was thinking.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Greg..you are correct in that the rubber plug will work in this case but with a TWIST per say...the plug as sold in the size you need is very thick it is too thick to insert into the water jacket and flush fit the backing washer against the block..HOWEVER...you can cut this slab of rubber in half and it will work fine...I have used these for on the road repairs...I recommend these as a trunk spare for anyone who had not replaced or should we say unaware of the actual condition of the plugs now fitted in the block..

be careful as you can compress these to much and no matter what they will not pop out like originally designed..these systems are non prressurized thus you need not crank these down extremely hard..

[TodFitch]

...be careful as you can compress these to much and no matter what they will not pop out like originally designed..these systems are non prressurized thus you need not crank these down extremely hard..

Turns out, at least on my 1933 which has an internal bypass setup on its water pump, that it is possible to pressurize the block enough to pop out a welch plug that is not properly installed.

You just accelerate as fast as you can down an on ramp to a freeway before the engine is warm enough to have the thermostat open. The pump is spinning its heart out forcing coolant into the block but there is no real outlet until the thermostat opens (the bypass hole from the block to the pump is quite small). So pressure builds up in the block and ....

Do you want to know how I know this is possible?

[Plymouthy Adams]

displacement through volume...

what would happen to the microwave oven if all kernels popped at the same time?

[greg g]

That upon reflection is exactly how I lost mine from a freshly rebuilt engine. It let go at the end of the ramp. Ping Whoosh!!!! Pity the poor lady who was tailgating me when it happend, she is probably still wondering why her windshied wipers didn't have much effect on the anti freeze mix.

[Andydodge]

Geese you guys are clowns.............now I know why I feel at home.........spoke to Rob on the phone for a while late last night, he's gunna go get the right wels/ch/freeze(lol) plugs......andyd

[Don Coatney]

Turns out, at least on my 1933 which has an internal bypass setup on its water pump, that it is possible to pressurize the block enough to pop out a welch plug that is not properly installed.

You just accelerate as fast as you can down an on ramp to a freeway before the engine is warm enough to have the thermostat open. The pump is spinning its heart out forcing coolant into the block but there is no real outlet until the thermostat opens (the bypass hole from the block to the pump is quite small). So pressure builds up in the block and ....

Do you want to know how I know this is possible?

Tod;

I have said for a long time that pressure can build in a non pressurized system. You put my thoughts into words that are more understandable.

[Jerry Roberts]

Here is another option for a welch plug when you don't have room to swing a hammer . It is part number Dorman 568-010 for the 1 5/8 size . Made from copper , brass and steel . I hope the pic comes through .

[Jerry Roberts]

[boxer_inv]

Fellows,

Glad to report that I've got the correct welch plugs now - found them at an engine reconditioning outfit in town - $1 each - so I got 10 just to have some on hand....

So now, armed with the dangerous amount of knowledge gleaned from you knowledgable contributors, supplemented by a considerable amount of courage after a VERY late night telephone conversation with Andydodge (Thanks so much Andy for making yourself available and for all the information you provided), I'm all set to tackle this job over the next weekend!

I'm all set to make good use of my legitimate excuse for getting dirty hands, bloody knuckles and muck in my eyes, no doubt made interesting by sporadic outbursts of rude words.!

Basically, thanks guys and I'll keep you posted!

Rob.

[Andydodge]

Rob........sounds like you done good.........btw did I tell you about the welsh/ch plugs that live in the steering?.........no?..........lol.........will save them for another day........lol.........nah, there are some used as grease/dirt sealing plugs at the top & bottom of the stub axle/king pin.........and no, don't worry they don't have water connections.....anyway was good to talk last night, have fun with the job and feel free to call if you have andy problems.....andyd

[Don Coatney]

Dont forget the 1 3/8" plug on top of the head. Also for a good flush connect a water hose to the heater connection on top of the head when the freeze plugs are removed. This should clean things up pretty good.

[Andydodge]

Don, forgot to mention that one, tho not a lot of mopars in Oz came with heaters but robs is an ex New Zealand car and they came straight from Canada so it may well have the heater......andyd

[Andydodge]

What with what Phil got outa his block and what Rob might find we could probably feed a family........yum.........sludge........yum.......lol........andyd

[boxer_inv]

Well, after spending the majority of the day today all dressed up and having a good time at the local horse races (Cup day), I managed to get back home with enough time to get my hands VERY dirty under the bonnet (ED: "he's talkin' 'bout the HOOD y'all) and started on the welch job....

I've now managed to get them out. After emptying the radiator and disconnecting hoses, and after removing the various components in the way, the plugs all gave way without too much resistance.

The top plugs don't seem to have too much crud stored behind and a gentle probe with the finger didn't find sludge up there. There is, however, plenty behind the lower ones when I've felt in those.

Its dark now and I don't have a decent work light so will be doing the flush out tomorrow. I'll try to post some pics of the muck that I get out!

Have a couple of questions though - not to do with the welch plug job...

Will post them separately.

*******

I have to say thanks to all on this forum for giving the advice that you have, and for the general encouragement - makes it much easier for novices like me to get in there and have a red-hot go at these maintenance jobs, knowing that help is only some keystrokes away! THANKS ALL

*******

[Andydodge]

Rob, you've done well!!........ideally have someone else on the tap and you have the hose stuck inside the holes or at the very least ready to squirt into the holes when the taps turned on.......find a piece of stiff wire such as coat hanger or welding rod and poke around inside the lower holes, the uppers will be relatively clear, the lowers are where the slop is, you'll be amazed at what is in there, short bits of wire, bolts, all sorts of crap........once it seems to run nice and clean then dry around the holes, try and get the ledges that the plugs sit on clean......one of those cheap round wire brushes in a drill can clean the holes nicely, then brush some gasket goo or similar around the holes edge, place the plug in the hole, it should just sit there and firmly hit the centre of the plug with a steel drift/punch or even an old long bolt with sufficent force to "flatten" the centre of the plug and jam the edges into the "ledge" that the plug sits on.......the"shape" of the old plugs will give you an indication as to how hard/firm you should wack the new plugs and the gasket goo is to help fill any rough edge around the plug.........try to replace the upper plugs first as they will probably be easier to get to..........isn't this a fun job........just think of what you could be doing......elsewhere........lol..........still think postive........it could be the plug behind the flywheel thats leaking...........lol..........andyd

[billwillard]

You have to dimple them in enough to seat good but do not go to far eather. If you drive them in too hard they will eather leak or pop out. 1/2 flat

Bill

[48Dodger]

......So pressure builds up in the block and ....

Do you want to know how I know this is possible?

lol.....Don't know why this struck me as so funny. I guess it's because the best info I have, is on the stuff I've either blown up or wrecked.

48D

[boxer_inv]

Well, after getting the plugs out yesterday, I set to this afternoon on the job of cleaning & flushing the block and replacing the welch's with new.

Overall, it went really well, used some surgical gloves to help cover the dizzy and other things from water - and set to with a flexible hose end that I made up. Plenty of crud...

I put into action all of the recommendations from forum members, used some wire to dislodge as much as possible, flushed until it ran clean, dried and then wire-brushed each opening.

I then test-fitted the plugs - BUT, none of them went in snugly or evenly around the circumference and even very gentle persuasion with a rubber mallet wouldn't see them seat in the holes. So, I used some fine sandpaper around the edges of the plugs and kept trying...until they slipped in. Removed each and then applied the goop, and then reinstalled. Used a combination of hammers to get each indented in the way that, in my opinion, they looked on the original plugs and kinda like what Mr Coatney had in his photographs.

After giving it some time and reinstalling the oil filer (thats another story!) I filled the block and all seemed okay. Reinstalled the remaining engine bits and got it to start without too many problems...that is until I realised that the water I had put into the radiator had drained out the bottom plug I had forgotten to close:o (yep, it got hot real quick!).

After letting it sit idling for a few minutes...dang! - leaks from around 2 of the 5 plugs! Very slow leaks, but leaks there is... Its difficult to tell, but there might have even been some seepage around a 3rd too.

So, after a decent days effort, here's the result:

Positives:

• Managed to actually DO this job without fear of the unknown thanks you you guys
  
• Got to spend some QUALITY time with my 7 year old son, who (so he tells me) enjoyed helping me out and reckons working on cars and getting greasy is kinda fun
  
• Got LOTS of gunk out of the engine block - perhaps enough for me to stake at least a mention in the "Crud from my engine block" hall of fame
  
• Learnt MANY lessons along the way from start to finish - like making a mental note to NEVER put off tightening that top screw on the oil filter canister cos the shifter is a bit far away, thinking you'll remember to do it later before starting the car...
  

Negatives:

• Still got me a leaking engine block...
  

Comments and suggestions guys?

[Andydodge]

Rob, o/k, couple of things, a couple of the plugs appear to have more of an indent into them rather than a more pronounced flatening.......if you know what I mean, the plugs that are leaking, try to use a wider drift on them, say instead of say a 1/2" drift, try a 3/4" wide drift with rounded edges rather than a sharp edge, you want to push the raised crown of the plug in which pushes the edges into the lip inside the hole, those plugs leaking may just need that little extra ooomph to get them to seat, if they just don't appear to seat at all and continue to weep, then you'll have to remove the offending one/s clean the lip & edge around the hole and start again, the 1&5/8" plugs should be a gentle tap into the hole, you shouldn't need to sand them to fit, the sharp 90 degree edge they have also helps to seal them in the hole........see, told you it was a fun job........and just look at all the "soup" you have collected from the block..........ya done good.......lol........and its even better having an apprentice helping........andyd

[Joe Flanagan]

Good thing you bought extras, Rob. Take a good look at the ones that are leaking and see if there is anything odd about the way they're seated. It's hard to tell from your picture how they're sitting in the recesses, but you might have a couple that are either cocked, too far in, or not dimpled inward enough. I guess the other possibility is that the recesses on the leaking plugs still have some crud/rust in them and need to be scored out. I'd use a flat blade screwdriver or something to run around the edge with and get it nice and flat. Looks like your boy is having a good time. My father was in Australia during WWII and never forgot it. He talked about it until he died in 2007 at age 93. He was stationed in Townsville, where he met some priests at the local cathedral there and with whom he kept up a correspondence for the rest of their lives. We even had a couple of them come here to the US to visit us.

[40phil41]

I did not use a 'drift' at all to set the plugs. I just used the rounded end of my large ball peen hammer. My welch plugs actually fit in the opening with a bit of slack. I was worried about them leaking but after setting them with the ball peen hammer they have not leaked a drop since.

P.S. By the looks of your crud we must be related :-)

Phil

[boxer_inv]

Thought I should just 'round out' this thread to let you all know that i had another crack at the 2 other leaking welch plugs yesterday......all good!

Filled up with water and checked it all over - went for a run and its all dry.

Sincere thanks to all for making my 'virgin' engine repair experience an enjoyable one.

In fact...emboldened with my success, I changed the spark plugs as well today (not such a big deal - even for me;)), and have my eyes on cleaning up this engine bay of mine with a lot of cleaning and some painting...so who knows where this will end?!

I've got some coolant questions, but I'll make another thread on that topic.

Thanks again - Rob.

[Andydodge]

Rob, good to hear it worked out o/k.......what other cooling issues do you have?.....andyd