"Fast 2nd gear" Question and OD update.

[James_Douglas]

I just counted the main gear teeth on my 3-speed and it is 32-25-19-14. The book shows the mid 1950's main shaft as 32-23-19-14.

When I was sold a transmission with a "fast 2nd gear" did that also require a change of main gear to the 1935 to 1939 main gear set which is listed as 32-25-19-14?

After driving for three weeks on the junk test transmission, I am convinced that with a large heavy car, and in particular one with fluid drive, the fast 2nd gear option is NOT the way to go unless you live in the heartland in flat open spaces and don't plan on mountain trips.

In coupes and the smaller sedans it would be a nice addition, just not on the big cars or if using a fluid coupling.

I have a stock 2nd gear (NOS), but do I need to hunt down a different main gear?

Later today, I will tear down the OD and see what is going on.

The Junk transmission has never failed to shift into overdrive.

The 2nd gear in it sound like it is ready to go through the side of the case as it is making a lot of noise, but the OD is working flawlessly.

I have not touched the control systems and I am using the Governor, lockout switch, and solenoid that were on the Asche supplied transmission that has not been working correctly.

There is NO doubt, in my mind, that the Asche overdrive has something wrong with it. it comes aprt this afternoon.

Thanks for the gear help, James

[BloodyKnuckles]

James,

I'm not sure what you expect from the fast second but even with a heavy car as yours you will be very pleased with the different gear. It's more on the lines of a normal, more modern, ratio. The biggest thing is that it will bring third within reach without taxing the engine after a shift from second. As many here know I really drive my car. It has the fast second. The car is a '51 2 door with over 600 pounds in the trunk and it moves just fine through the hills and mountains.

I would seriously reconsider the fast second. You'll be very pleased.

BloodyKnuckles

[James_Douglas]

I have run the "fast second gear for a year in the Asche transmission. It is nice with the overdrive. The problem is that the car if on any incline whatsoever accelerates very slowly.

This is a combination of being a 9 passenger -140 inch wheelbase car that is heavier than 99% of the MOPARS of the period. Only the Big Chrysler 8 LWB cars were any heavier and they had two more cylinders.

I drive the car every day in San Francisco city traffic. For the last few weeks while determining my OD problems I have used a test transmission that has the standard 2nd gear.

I must respectfully disagree with you on one point. In modern city traffic, people take off from a stop light at a much higher rate than when these cars were new. From a dead stop the standard second gear does a much better job of keeping up with the flow of traffic by dealing with the extra heavy car and the losses off the line by using fluid drive. The shift from 2nd to 3rd feel more natural now, although I miss the ability to shift from 2nd to 2nd OD and continue up to about 40 MPH. Now I have to shift into third on boulevards. In city residential streets I can use 2nd and 2nd OD.

I may experiment with dropping the OD kick-in MPH and try to lower it about 3 to 6 MPH. My car could use to shift into OD a few MPH sooner. The factory books show a spread of 20 to 32 MPH depending on the car. I think a little fine tuning of OD kick-in to car weight and HP would make it even more “natural”.

In a car that does not weigh as much as mine and/or one that does not use the fluid coupling --- the fast second gear is a good choice. I am just feeding back to folks that if their car is heavy and uses the fluid coupling that my opinion is that is it best to stick with the standard second gear.

Best, James

[Don Coatney]

Ron;

James lives and drives in the heart of San Francisco. Mostly steep hills one right after the other. Watch the movie Bullett and you will see the neighborhood he drives in. I have been treated to a ride in his heavy car in this environment. The long gear may be good for you but I believe James knows his driving needs.

James;

I awate the Transmission di-section results.

[BloodyKnuckles]

James,

Now I understand. You have better described things with your response. You have every right to disagree with me as Don put it, you definately know your vehicle. I personally never rode in a fluid drive car but I sure know that my wife's DeSoto with a 2 speed automatic is significantly slower from a dead stop than my Plymouth is but her car is heavier.

Good luck with your transmission.

BloodyKnuckles

[claybill]

hey yu guys....!

when you speak of a 'fast second gear'.... do you mean;

1....it accelerates faster..like a good power car...

or;

2...more gradual speed increase but will top out at 5-10 miles per hour faster

bill

[martybose]

The "fast" 2nd gear is out of a 40's tranny and is lower numerically than the later ones. So there is a larger drop in RPM from 1st to 2nd, but you go faster in 2nd gear and have a lower drop in RPM going into 3rd.

Most of us think the later gear is too close to 1st and too far from 3rd.

Marty

[kevinanderson]

I'm confused too. So the "fast" gear provides more torque. Thus 1st and 2nd are closer spaced than the 2-3 shift r.p.m. wise? And dropping into 3rd really drops the r.p.m.'s? Maybe I should stick with a Dynaflow..........

[martybose]

Okay, I'll try again. Right now the later 3 speed has 2nd gear very close to 1st, and a large jump from 2nd to 3rd. The early transmission has 2nd gear more evenly spaced between 1st and 3rd.

So with the early tranny you will stay in 2nd gear to a higher speed, then have less of an RPM drop into 3rd.

Have I confused everyone yet?

Marty

[Howard Tarnoff]

I bought the gear from George back 4 or 5 years ago and sent it to Western Transmission who built my overdrive. I have quesitons for those who have this gear.

George told me the benefit was that it was a "long" gear, it would wind out further than the the stock gear in the OD transmission. It has been so long ago that I have long forgotten the details he talked in terms of a longer speed range not a faster gear.

I wont get to drive the car until the 12th of July when it is scheduled to be finished (Murphy stay away), so all your comments an info on what I should really expect are greatly appreciated. I did use the switch and solinoid I got from SeaPLYM on eBay, George did not have 12 volt versions and we used a stock pull cable that I found on the bay as well.

Thanks in advance,

Howard

[claybill]

ok i will change my question; i understand the ratio change..and the rpm drops..and the 1-2 &2-3 etc..understanding is one thing..performance is yet another.. ya' gotta try it to know it!

so;

If i were on a 1/4 mile strip !!!!! would the fast second be a good choice?

or;

would the later second be better.

i want to be able to beat these early ford v8's easily..

bill

[Merle Coggins]

The way I'm understanding this thread is the later 2nd gears have a higher numerical ratio, meaning that you would have better acceleration through 2nd gear with a bigger step up into 3rd.

The earlier ones had a lower numerical ratio allowing one to stay in 2nd gear longer and gaining more speed before shifting into 3rd with a smaller step.

Did I get that right? So... which one is the "Fast" gear? The later type could be considered "fast" because of better acceleration. But the earlier one could be considered "fast" due to it's higher possible speed. Confusing.

[Young Ed]

If I'm just putting around the neighborhood I frequently skip 2nd all together! How does that fit in

[Don Coatney]

If i were on a 1/4 mile strip !!!!! would the fast second be a good choice?

It is my understanding that with the early "fast" second gear the RPM drop between gears would be better spaced out so the car with the "fast" second gear should win the race all else being equal.

Of note I just read this morning that the NHRA is making a rule change. After the recent tragic death of Scott Kalitta the length of top fuel and funny car runs will be reduced from 1/4 mile to 1000 feet starting now.

If I'm just putting around the neighborhood I frequently skip 2nd all together! How does that fit in

Ed;

Is your girlfriend riding with you when you do this? Suggest you check local laws as skipping second gear may not be legal:D

[Young Ed]

Ed;

Is your girlfriend riding with you when you do this? Suggest you check local laws as skipping second gear may not be legal:D

Don for not ever having met me in person you know me pretty well! She's learning how to shift the car too.....

[BobT-47P15]

Sometimes, on level ground, I take off in second gear.

And sometimes the wifey is beside me.

Is either of those things illegal????

Should not be "immoral", but can be "fattening" as she likes to stop

at either Braums Ice Cream or a Dairy Queen while out riding around.

My car will not run out very fast in either low or second. Second may

get me to 40 mph.....possibly 45.....but that's about it.

[1949P17BC]

All, I put an OD with fast second. Dropped 1 second in the 1/4 mile @ Monster Mopar

[James_Douglas]

The best way to look at the second gear choices is to approach the issue from the perspective of which gear is normally used from a dead stop and what is the overall final drive ratio in that gear.

In my case, I use second gear from a dead stop 99% of the time. First gear is only really usable for very steep hill starts or for towing something really heavy. Also, my column shift makes it very hard to double clutch so I have to be at a dead stop to get the car into first gear in any account.

The factors that affect the choice of second gear are the cars weight, the HP available, and the type of transmission be it pure clutch, wet clutch, or full automatic with a torque converter.

For the purposes of discussion on this forum, I will assume that we are going to be talking about a pure clutch or a wet clutch (aka “Fluid Drive). I am also assuming most of us are running flathead sixes with no more than 120 HP.

In my particular case, I have a heavy car, a wet clutch, and hills to deal with. I have used the so-called fast 2nd gear for a year now and have noted that the acceleration in my heavy car with a wet clutch is lacking. I also have 4.11 final drive gears. Since testing the spare transmission, for OD issues, I have noted that the standard 2nd gear accelerates my heavy car much better from a dead stop in the environment it is driven in.

So let review the gearing numbers:

Standard Second gear is: 1.83

Fast Second gear is: 1.55

Using my particular rear end drive ratio we achieve a take-off overall gearing of:

Standard Second gear is: 7.52 (1.83*4.11= 7.52)

Fast Second gear is: 6.37 (1.55*4.11=6.37)

Now it is instructive to note that 95% of the wet clutch (fluid drive) equipped cars came with a Semi-Automatic (M6). The second gear on these transmissions had a ratio of 2.04. So the take-off overall ratio on these cars with a 4.11 rear end was 8.38 to 1 !

There was a reason for this. The wet clutch does not multiply torque like a modern converter as it does not have a stator. Therefore, until the turbine moves from a stalled state to a lock state there is considerable power loss. This turbine locks fully at about 3 to 6 MPH. I think that is why the cars with a wet clutch (Fluid drive) were designed by MOPAR to have a numerically higher second gear.

If you are running a pure clutch then you do not see the turbine losses and the fast second gear may be a good fit if your car is not one the larger ones and you are not in a hilly area or dive in dense city traffic a lot.

If you are using a wet clutch (fluid drive) and/or have a heavy car, I would recommend that you stick with the 1.83 second gear.

For those cars with overdrives I have a minor point for consideration. When using a BW overdrive and the fast second gear, I have found that it is nice to take off in second and let it “auto shift” into second OD. I do like this feature and miss it with the standard second gear. However, when running on second OD you are turning more gears in the transmission and adding more patristic drag. George Asche pointed this out to me. If you are driving your car a lot, given gas prices, the car experiences less transmission patristic drag by shifting into third gear. So having the regular second gear and shifting into third as a driving habit may ,over time, save you a little.

That’s all folks! Have a great 4th!

James

[greg g]

James, I think if you do the math with the OD rate applied to the 2nd gear ratios. It looks like the standard 2nd is the best choice of hilly areas. The standard second give you a fairly low gear for take off, then a .76 reduction to 5.72 with the OD upshift. The "fast" second would be slower (as in engine revs) in both direct drive and OD.

I remember my dad used to drive his 54 dodge with fluid drive with it in second in the city. In all other applications he drove it as though it was a regular 3 speed. I guess I don't understand why you don't use first gear to start your heavier car. When stopped, double clutching isn't needed. Even if like my dad you only used tow to overcome intetia, he used to shift ant 8 to 10 mph into second. The torque of the engine should mean that second gear should be adequate for all other driving even negotioating sharp turns at 5 mph or so.

So for block to block slogging through city traffic I would use 1st, second and second OD with the standard 2nd gear set.

[James_Douglas]

Greg,

The problem is that there is a lot of "stop and go" here that is really slow down to 3 or 4 MPH and then go. I have stopped to shift into first, but people get rather pissed off at that...

You are correct with the OD the ratio goes much lower. I have found that with the standard 2nd gear the revs vs. MPH are good for a 2nd gear shift to OD, but only on flat or slight down grade. On any hill, and everything here is up or down, by the time I hit the MPH for the OD to activate I may as well shift into 3rd gear.

One thing I have noted from the literature is that the governor was set between 20 to 32 MPH depending on the car. I think in my case if I can modify a governor to kick in about 3 or 4 MPH lower it would be a better match to my car.

James

[PatS....]

James, if you are going 3-4 mph and want to shift into first without stopping, you would only have to slightly increase the revs to match your road speed and it would drop right in to first.(do this with the clutch pedal out, by feel)

On a synchromesh transmission, in my experience, double clutching is unnecessary. It's usually only needed in non-syncro transmissions.

I know with a very heavy vehicle and only 3 gears, I would always use first to get the old girl moving from a stop. On some 4 and 5 speeds you can skip first but not many 3 speeds are happy with that.

Good luck on the quest for a working combo, James

[James_Douglas]

Pat,

I have tried to do that. But for some reason it does not want to drop into gear. It may have something to do with the freewheel nature of the OD unit. I may try it with the cable lcoking out the OD and see if it will go.

James

[De Soto Frank]

James,

Great explanation... I've learned a lot from this thread.

This "fast second gear" business is almost as confusing as defining "Fluid Drive"... LOL...

From the way I'm reading James's description of it, his "fast-second" allows the car to achieve a higher ground-speed by the time the engine maxes-out than with the "other" 2nd gear...

I could also see the interpretation for "fast second" meaning a higher numeric ratio, translating into quicker acceleration in 2nd, but getting "winded" sooner, with respect to the speedometer, which (I think) would be or more interest to those guys wanting to "drag" with flatty-Fords (?)...

Regarding Marty's comments about which trannies were offered when, I can only cite my own hands-on experience with my stock 1941 De Soto S-8 sedan, which has a 228 cid six (3-3/8" bore x 4-1/4" stroke), "dry clutch", 3-speed, 4.1 rear, and 6.50 x 16 tires.

I don't know whether my car has the "short" or "tall" second-gear - shop manual specs it at 1.83:1 - but in driving this car over the last ten years, it seems that 2nd is too close to 1st, in terms of ratio, and too far way from 3rd (direct).

If I'm using all three gears, and driving "normally", I shift from 1st to 2nd at around 10 MPH, and from 2nd to 3rd at about 20 MPH. These are the points when the engine "sounds" like it's ready to shifted. If I were to leave the car in 2nd gear, and run it flat-out as fast as the engine would take, it don't think it would reach 40 mph... and it sounds far too scary to try this experiment, with 103,000 miles on the engine.

My second is "low enough" that I can often start-off in 2nd gear, even on moderate hills.

Unfortunately, I do not have any behind-the-wheel experience with other flathead MoPar sticks to make a comparison.

If the 1950's MoPar 3-speeds had a numnberically-higher 2nd gear than my '41 (1.83), THAT's scary.

I have had a couple of babbit-pounder Chevrolets, and second gear seemed to be spaced a bit better in those cars (4.1 rear, BTW).

Regards,

De Soto Frank

[greg g]

Frank good to see you aboard again. I wondered where you've been hiding.

probably busy season at work. I was in your neck of the woods last week. Made a trip to Scranton Chrylers Dodge, to do a trade for the local dealership.

Shoulda gave you a call for a quick lunch but I didn't bring my particulars with me.

[Jim Yergin]

George Asche's theory is that in '41 Chrysler changed the second gear ratio to make it easier to start in second gear and then have only one shift left to get into high gear because people preferred not having to shift.

Jim Yergin