what's your gas cost?

[HalfdollarMayflower]

How many refineries are in Europe? Just curious.

Not sure what to make of this, but according to this site, http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/energy/afarg5.html federal subsudies to the oil industry for gasoline amount to 4 tenths of a cent per gallon.

Ethanol, on the other hand, is subsudized up to 54 cents per gallon.

[Guest rockabillybassman]

Does anyone have any info on the oil-bearing shale under Canada that is supposed to contain up to 500 years supply, or is that just a myth?

[Norm's Coupe]

Does anyone have any info on the oil-bearing shale under Canada that is supposed to contain up to 500 years supply, or is that just a myth?

I only know about what I've seen on TV and read about in the paper. Guess they are digging that oil out now that the cost of oil has risen. Actually it's made boom towns out of a few places up in Canada.

[Young Ed]

Some of that price seems to be assuming the war was fought for oil and therefore including war spending into the price of gasoline. Doesn't sound right to me.

[Captain Neon]

I don't support the neocon wars of empire. Free markets will get us oil at a fair and cheaper price than conquering a fourth world country. The Iraq War is more about the American Empire and the NWO than it is about oil. The American public is just more willing to support this neocon war if they believe it is about oil and revenge.

If the costs of the war in the Middle East are your treatise then you haven't proven your point and you have failed to refute mine. Please show me the oil company subsidies and tax breaks? They aren't there. The oil industry is one of the most heavily taxed and regulated in these united States of America. I would suspect that the only industries more regulated than petroleum are food and drug manufacturing.

[Suddensix]

Lots of oil in the Alberta tar sands but is is EXPENSIVE to get out. In the Toronto area to-day gas is $1.04 per litre which is about $4.16 for a U.S. gallon or $4.68 for a Canadian gallon.

[PatS....]

Does anyone have any info on the oil-bearing shale under Canada that is supposed to contain up to 500 years supply, or is that just a myth?

No, it's not a myth, it's for real. Actually called tar sands. It's the engine driving a very robust economy here right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Oil_Sands

They say our oil reserves are second only to Saudi Arabia. How come it don't feel so cool to be in that company?

[blueskies]

I don't support the neocon wars of empire....

...If the costs of the war in the Middle East are your treatise then you haven't proven your point and you have failed to refute mine...

Read the excerpt again,

The actual cost of gasoline refined from imported oil, according to Copulos?

Eight dollars a gallon.

This does not take into consideration the war stuff, which according to Copulos, adds another $3 to the price, for a total of $11.

It's a complex issue to be sure.

Pete

[TodFitch]

<snip>...but I'm tired of the myth of 'exhausted supply'; there's enough oil in the ground in West Texas and the Anadarko basin in Oklahoma to last us at least 60 years (yes, even at the current rate of consumption)<snip>

Do you have a reference for that statement? Sure sounds different from what I have been reading in lots of different places.

<snip>Would you buy a Ford Extinction that gets 12 mpg when gas is $10 bucks a gallon? <snip>

"Ford Extinction"? I've been calling those models "Ford Excess". I think I like yours better.

[Don Coatney]

"Ford Extinction"? I've been calling those models "Ford Excess". I think I like yours better.

Is that the same as a chuby Subdivision:confused:

[Captain Neon]

I disagree. It is $11/gal for Iraqi oil only considering all the costs of the wars are borne on Iraq. How much if we only used Venezuelan or Mexican oil and pulled out of Iraq? My guess is you would find some article about poor farmers in Mexico that can't make a living stringing beads together and that my Mexican oil is being sold to me too cheaply and I need to pay more at the pump so that a Mexican farmer can have a higher standard of living by sitting on his bum.

The whole article talks about the costs of the wars in the Middle East. How much if there is no war at all and we paid the Saudis and Iraqis a fair price? You claimed there were tremendous subsidies. The subsidies, if any, don't add up to $00.004/gal. Hardly $8/gal. Don't insult mine and every one else's intelligence.

The issue is a simple supply and demand problem. American refineries can only produce so much gasoline. Bureaucrats have all but stopped the building of new refineries so the supply of gasoline is decreasing as refinery efficiency goes down and some refineries can no longer operate. Demand is increasing, therefore price goes up. Were the oil companies allowed to increase their production, the price would drop. Their cost to produce a gallon of gasoline would also decrease if more efficient modern technologies were employed.

Add on to this the added excise taxes our federal, state, and local governments apply to gasoline. The real price of a gallon of uS produced gasoline is probably closer to $1.50. It would be even cheaper if the oil companies would be permitted to produce more fuel. How American is that? A producer has to ask permission from the government to increase his inventory of a product. The cost would be even cheaper once a competitive equilibrium is met between supply and demand.

It's a complex problem because there are too many do-gooders, politicians, bureacrats, and imperialists getting in the way of free market principles. I should not be held responsible or made to feel guilty for being gouged at $3/gal because a buggy whip maker in VA doesn't have a market for his product any more.

[blueskies]

Is that the same as a chuby Subdivision:confused:

LOL...

Pete

[John Mulders]

Interesting reading on the hidden costs.

If you look at the costs that way should you not also take in account the profits made by the industries that are linked?

Costs of war - industries that develop weapons and sell them around the world.

Costs of medical treatments - profit/income of the medical world. Developments on treatment will be sold aswell (think of bionic protheses)

And why would the costs of gas be so much higher in Europe?

They are hardly present in these conflicts and don't have that spending on an army.

Anyway - I agree 100% that we need to change and loose the dependency on Oil. Not only will that lead to a cleaner environment , it will also decrease the oil need and therefor less conflicts over it.

and so on.

John

[greg g]

It's all spun BS truth is oil improts are Down, compared to 1 year ago, and this chart shows the sources of US oil Imports. If there is a war for oil, it is going to happen north of the 44th parallel and a lot closer to home:

Crude imports dropped 539,000 barrels a day, or 5.2% in the latest month, figures from the Energy Information Administration show.

Top 10 Sources Of U.S. Crude Oil Imports (revised data)

(in millions of barrels per day)

Oct 07 Sep Oct 06 YTD 07

07

Canada 1.889 1.960 1.712 1.867

Saudi Arabia 1.370 1.441 1.322 1.422

Mexico 1.322 1.293 1.481 1.420

Venezuela 1.221 1.146 1.125 1.133

Nigeria 1.184 1.137 1.049 1.053

Iraq 0.490 0.603 0.505 0.494

Angola 0.342 0.578 0.506 0.511

Ecuador 0.222 0.234 0.315 0.202

Algeria 0.213 0.503 0.449 0.478

Brazil 0.172 0.213 0.171 0.175

And since when are NIgeria, algeria, Angola are part of the Volitile Middle east????

Rest of the source here:

http://news.morningstar.com/newsnet/ViewNews.aspx?article=/DJ/200712311352DOWJONESDJONLINE000221_univ.xml

Its just oil companies screwing with us, and equalizing prices to match the rest of the world, while making enormous profits and extracting everycent they can until the antiquated refinerys fall apart from lack of mantanence and no reinvestments in upgrades. They will wait till it crumbles and then expect the govt to pay for rebuilding them in the national interest.

[HalfdollarMayflower]

Do you have a reference for that statement? Sure sounds different from what I have been reading in lots of different places.

No reference...that's what I'm told by a friend that works with the US Geological Survey. Problem is the way they classify 'reserve'...a 'reserve' is the amount of oil in the ground that could be pumped out given the current technology and economic feasibility. Those reserves that are either impossible to reach with the current technology and/or aren't economically feasible to tap into are not counted in the reserve. I am told that there is still several trillion barrells of oil in tar & shale deposits in West Texas, aside from the 5.25 billion bbls of oil (proven reserve) still in the ground. Unfortunately, that oil is much more difficult to get to and currently is not economically feasible to get out of the ground. This is 2nd hand though, so I can't prove whether or not its true...just what I've heard from someone that claims to be "in the know".

That being said, 60 years is probably a gross overstatement. Maybe more like 15-20 years?

I'd be interested to learn what you've read on the subject.

[RobertKB]

Greg g, sounds like you are already trying to take over Canada. Most of us fellow North Americans live north of the 49th Parallel, not the 44th. All of the oil in the tarsands is primarily in Alberta and we call the 49th the thin line between genius and insanity. Your choice which one.

[knighthawk]

I don't understand,,,, If they 're bringing in crude oil from other countries, isn't crude oil what they are pumping out of the ground here ? What your saying is... they can ship it over here cheaper than they cam pump it out the ground here ? Don't make sense to me !

[HalfdollarMayflower]

Good question...I think our strategy is to deplete the supply of foreign oil before our own is gone.

And yes, some of the North American oil is more expensive to refine...see the above mentioned Canada sand-oil deposits...mucho denero to refine when compared with sweet crude from Saudi. Or so I'm told.

[greg g]

Bob, Pardon my typo. I guess if President Polk had gone through with his platform slogan, there would have been more of us and fewer of you and the question would have been moot.

54-40 or fight!!! He wanted the line at 54 degrees 40 mnutes. Seeing as the majority of Canadas population is in the lower 10 degrees of lattitude, it would have probably annexed a buch of your ancestors, and made this pass port thing a non issue..... and we would have been using our own oil.

[1941Dodge]

Gas is higher in Europe, because people drive less, they do not have to drive 50 miles to work, if they did, the would hit the ocean or be in another country, and that is why, when cars get 60-100 mpg. the price of gas will go up so, that the companies will need to provide and sell less product, but, still make the same money, there is a thing about this on the Antique Automobile Club General Forum, they also, have forums for all brands including Dodge and Plymouth, maybe we can get some more recruits?

[55 Fargo]

Gasoline is also quiet cheap in Venezuela, around 12 cents per gallon, China around $2.00 per gallon, Iraq 40 cents per gallon, Iran 35 cents per gallon a lot less than in the US or Canada, I think were being gouged, and as well decieved to the availability of world crude resources...........Fred

[TodFitch]

I don't understand,,,, If they 're bringing in crude oil from other countries, isn't crude oil what they are pumping out of the ground here ? What your saying is... they can ship it over here cheaper than they cam pump it out the ground here ? Don't make sense to me !

Simplistically, if your fields are depleted then you are drilling lots of wells to access little pockets of oil. So you get very little return on each well before it runs dry. That means you are spending a lot more per barrel to produce oil that somewhere else where a large oil field is still producing well.

No reference...that's what I'm told by a friend that works with the US Geological Survey. Problem is the way they classify 'reserve'...a 'reserve' is the amount of oil in the ground that could be pumped out given the current technology and economic feasibility. Those reserves that are either impossible to reach with the current technology and/or aren't economically feasible to tap into are not counted in the reserve.<snip>

I have a relative that works at the USGS and another with a degree in geophysics who no longer works in the field. Both are very circumspect about giving out opinions in fields even slightly out of their specialty (which is not oil or petroleum deposits). That seems to be common among many "rank and file" scientists. It is curious to me that your friend appears to be so forth coming. What is his/her specialty? (Being an engineer I am much more likely to give opinions on topics I know little about. )

In any event the key is, as you put it, "the amount of oil in the ground that could be pumped out given the current technology and economic feasibility" is the key. If it isn't economically feasible that simply means it costs too much to recover. There is enough hydrogen in interstellar space to power us forever, but it is beyond current technology and economic feasibility too.

Looking at annual reports from companies like ExxonMobil and BP it is evident that finding new oil at anywhere near current prices is challenging. It costs more to get the last few barrels of recoverable oil out of an old field than it did to get the first barrels. It costs more to drill and pump in politically unstable areas (ignore the middle east and consider Nigeria and other places in Africa that have oil, none of those are very stable). It costs more to get oil out of oil sands than conventional oil. It costs even more to get it out of oil shales.

And, for that reason, we will never run out of oil. What remains in the ground will be too expensive, relative to other energy sources to bother going after.

What those other energy sources will be is up in the air present but my guess is electricity and much better batteries for most of our local transportation with biofuels filling a gap for short term and for types of transportation that are not easily electrified (aircraft, ocean freighters, medium distance trucking). Around town good batteries and electric vehicles make sense. For long distance ground transportation I'd expect railroads to make a come back in passenger travel as they have already done for bulk freight.

[Mr. Belvedere]

One other major factor in spiking oil prices is the futures market. Alot of people are speculating in oil and gas markets are really driving price spikes as of late.

[knighthawk]

I'd like yo add this ; go to , or get this months issue of Popular Mechanics . There is a very , very good articla on the ethenol stuff....like how it cost 1.3 gal of petroluem fuel to produce 1 gal of ethonal, and it would take 95% of all our farmland just to produce enough corn to replace the imported oil . Leaving none for the rest of our food ........................good reading

[Don Jordan]

I just thought I'd jump in here before everyone gets too serious.

While I know gas was cheaper - when I was in high school, working at my uncle's gas station, gas was 23 cents a gallon.

You could get a McDonald's hamburger for .19

A stamp was .03

I don't smoke but when I was in high school a pack of cigarettes was .25

We don't even want to go what a new Plymouth cost.

To put it all in perspective I washed dishes for .90 an hour.

The house I lived in was $14,000 (3 bed, 2 bath) in San Bruno, CA.

I don't remember who said it but the sad part of this is the legacy we are passing on.