House Renovations - Questions

[Eneto-55]

Leaving this general, because I'll probably be back with questions in other categories.

This time, blown insulation vs bat, and electrical: hot wire to light, or to the switch

 

We have purchased the house where my wife grew up from age 12 until we married. Built in 1965, blown insulation. It is a real pain to deal with. It's dusty, and moving any of it to trace electrical wiring or do any other work up in the attic creates a cloud of fine dust. The house was originally all electric, with base board heaters. Her dad later installed central heat & A/C. Removing the base board heaters, thermostats, and wiring. (So it will not be so confusing - many of the breakers are not labeled, and I don't know if something I would consider a no-no might have been done - branching off of the 220 circuit at the heater to supply 110 to other devices. Unfortunately, I have some suspicions along this line.)

 

I also removed two weight-bearing walls, so I had to do a lot of work in the attic, installing over-head beams. Now I'm mostly trying to trace wires. There is also a 12 VDC system integrated into the lighting in various locations in the house. The lights themselves are not DC, only the switching control system is. The light bulbs are all 110 AC. Not sure if parts are still available for something like that, so maybe we should replace it now?

 

Powering a light - service connected at the fixture, or at the switch? Back home, the power always went to the switch (at least I'm pretty sure of this). In our current house, some service lines go to the light, others go to the switch. You don't know until you open it up and touch the terminals. (Yeah, I know, there are other ways, but none are so 'exciting'.)

 

I've looked on-line, and there is (of course) little agreement. Some say that power to the light used to be common, because it uses less wire. Then some say you can still do it according to code in most places, but that power to the switch is now 'preferred'. Others say power to the fixture is no longer per code, and that if you do any electrical work in a house you are required to switch everything over to the, well, the switch.

 

Others add that some modern light switches need power all of the time, so they won't work unless you power the switch. (What kind of devices would that be?)

[JBNeal]

If the switch itself illuminates so that it can be seen in the dark, then you will need power to the switch...also, if the switch is variable such as a dimmer instead of toggle, then power is required full time.

 

12VDC inside a house is something that I have not seen, but have seen that used to operate landscaping lighting. If it works, why not keep it...tho if replacement parts are not available  then it's time to think about upgrades.

 

The only time I have dealt with power at the light was when a pull-string switch was used for an Edison base in a closet or small room or the entrance to attic space.  I ran lights in my attic operated from a toggle at the entrance to replace the single Edison base bulb light, as I had leftover materials from another project and converted some of the attic into storage.

 

I spent a LOT of time in blown insulation attics, and the only thing that helped was to wear a woodworking mask to keep from inhaling the irritating dust.  When I didn't and was moving around too much up there, I regretted it for hours afterwards.  I definitely had to hit the showers afterwards as I would be covered in itchies.

[Eneto-55]

47 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

If the switch itself illuminates so that it can be seen in the dark, then you will need power to the switch...also, if the switch is variable such as a dimmer instead of toggle, then power is required full time.

 

12VDC inside a house is something that I have not seen, but have seen that used to operate landscaping lighting. If it works, why not keep it...tho if replacement parts are not available  then it's time to think about upgrades.

 

The only time I have dealt with power at the light was when a pull-string switch was used for an Edison base in a closet or small room or the entrance to attic space.  I ran lights in my attic operated from a toggle at the entrance to replace the single Edison base bulb light, as I had leftover materials from another project and converted some of the attic into storage.

 

I spent a LOT of time in blown insulation attics, and the only thing that helped was to wear a woodworking mask to keep from inhaling the irritating dust.  When I didn't and was moving around too much up there, I regretted it for hours afterwards.  I definitely had to hit the showers afterwards as I would be covered in itchies.

This stuff looks like it's made of shredded cardboard. It doesn't itch, but it coats me and my mask with looks like good old dirt. (And some of it is so fine that gets through or around the mask, and so I blow mud out of my nose afterwards. My glasses get fogged up too, and the dirt gets caked on the inside of the lenses.)

 

This 12 VDC system uses regular 120 AC bulbs. The 12V deal apparently used capacitors or relays to turn the lights on and off.  I haven't tested one of these switches, but the appear to be double momentary switches - push up for momentary ON, and down for momentary OFF. That is, the switch does not stay in the position (up or down) that you last pushed it.

[Los_Control]

It is my opinion, ya kinda stuck with the insulation.

Typical home construction, there will be 2"x4" rafters making the roof structure .... will be limited to R13 bat insulation.

Blown in insulation, you can achieve a higher R value then R13 ... I think it is better and properly installed it fits into tight spaces and seals better.

 

The roof if it is properly vented, will  have dust in the attic .... no way to get away from it.

I imagine there is some way to remove/vacuum all the dust and insulation out of the attic ... and clean it .... do your work and then blow in new ....mighty costly for little gain.

Attics and crawl spaces are never fun.

 

The electrical, I would go through and inspect it .... anything shady like pulling 110 off of a 220 circuit I would eliminate.

I would typically install a new breaker and run 110 all the way from the panel to the item that needs it.

I just feel better about not messing with the original wiring .... it worked for 60 years now ... just leave it alone. Unless you want to track down everything and then add up the load and figure out if it is safe to add another item ... too much math in that for me .... just start clean.

Then you know what kind of power that new circuit is feeding and if you can tap into it later if it is needed.

 

Same with existing lighting ... either way is acceptable and it works .... just use switches and accessories that work with what you have.

If you want something different, then run a new wire from a new breaker in the panel to your project ... leave the old wiring as is.

I'm all for eliminating circuits and switches from existing wiring .... lessen the load on whats there, move it to a fresh circuit.

 

I will be honest, I do not care for power to the light and use power to the switch method myself.

Many fixtures you will cut power to so you can safely work on it .... your test light will still pickup some power bleeding through the lines .... not enough to shock you, but enough to power the test light ... sometimes it is easier to kill power to the whole house then find the offending circuit.

It could be from the light above the bathroom sink, a outlet in bedroom 3 .... just a characteristic of old house wiring.

Still it was acceptable and it works. Just leave it alone.

 

In theory it may be fine to start modifying the existing wiring and adding to it ... I personally would not touch it, unless removing a load from it, and then moving to a new circuit.

[Plymouthy Adams]

well, somebody has to say it and I know you know of this, follow code per your county...work as you will be inspected if or inspection will be required.  Now trying to find code for you county, good luck with that.  Most just say the NEC till inspection and then they say well for this area we use/do this    *****************  mostly just ask your county inspectors if anything other than NEC is applicable for your project.  

[Los_Control]

@Plymouthy Adamssaid the dirty word    

It is so true though ... codes change in areas so often. In Albuquerque it was code to use 14GA wire for lighting circuits and 12GA for electrical outlets.

Then one day they changed that and required 12GA on all circuits. .... Electricians did not know there was a change, until the inspectors told them. Yeah we changed that last week.

 

I just run 12GA on everything ... possibly overbuilt, I'm ok with that.

 

Is amazing how many circuits are needed in a kitchen. Garbage disposal, refrigerator, oven, built in microwave, lights, outlets ... 7 items need 7 different circuits ... iirc, disposal and microwave need to be GFCI protected ... possibly fridge also. .... Your codes may be different. ... for some reason, I believe they want exhaust fan on a separate circuit also ... just so you can safely isolate these things when they need service and can safely work on them.

 

Every County is going to be different.

 

One thing I was told by a clerk at city hall when we moved in and I asked some questions ... this is a small town.

The lady said, If you have plans for any project ... just give us a call. The inspector can stop by when they get a chance and discuss it with you and offer advice ... for free.

She claimed, we would rather work with you safely ... then have you do something unsafe .... the inspector can then advise if you want to get a permit or not for the project.

[LazyK]

Little back ground 30 years selling electrical supplies.

There was a low voltage electrical lighting control that was popular in the mid sixties sold by GE. Used relays to control. Before I retired parts were still available, I assume they still are. The most common part to fail was the relay. Part number for a single pole relay was RR7.

The wiring style with the power to the fixture is called switch leg wiring. It was still legal in 2017 per the national electrical code(NEC). Check with a licensed electrician for current compliance as the code may have changed in 2023.

NEC is up dated every three years. It is up to local jurisdiction if/when to adopt the changes. Most jurisdictions have a grace period before enforcement.

JBNeal is correct many new dimmers require a neutral connection. If purchasing check the packing it should be marked neutral required or not required. If neutral is required it will not work on a switch leg style system.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by LazyK
Additional info

[Sniper]

It's simple enough to figure out if you think about it. What do the breakers trip? The power side. Same thing with any switch he needs to control the power side. It's a safety thing more than anything else. Because if you're working on a lighting fixture and you've turned off the switch is your only form of protection and the switch only controls the return side that means to fix your is hot. You're standing on your aluminum step ladder and you grab that fixture and complete the path to ground guess what you're going to get a shock.

[kencombs]

The only place in the code that I'm aware of that addresses light switch power source or wiring is the fairly new requirement that all switch location include a neutral.   The old switch leg method did not provide for that. 

 

That is to support a lot of newer smart switches, lighted switches etc.

[Plymouthy Adams]

testing for power old fashion way.....I once accused Don Coatney of being this chap in the photo....he got a good laugh....miss that guy.  

 

[Eneto-55]

My brother-in-law, a licensed electrician, prefers to wire lights with the switch on. That way he doesn't have to get off of the ladder to test it....  (110 doesn't bother me, either. I often wire stuff while it's hot.)

Edited 1 hour ago by Eneto-55
typing error.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you can also train either the wife or a rhesus monkey to flip the switch, my advice...don't piss off either of them if used.

[Los_Control]

Just a photo for laughs.

This house was over 100 years old .... I believe this was a open porch at some time, then someone closed it in .... then later it actually turned into a bearing wall.

When opening up a older house, you just have no idea what other people have done in the past. .... IIRC, there was a old live wire buried in this wall that I immediately removed before even thinking about taking the photo.

 

 

Just one of those jobs that was suppose to be fairly simple .... looked nice on the exterior under the stucco siding ....

Looking at the photo it is just WOW! .... This is exactly the reason I always did remodel by the hour and not on a direct bid.

 

The projected cost of the job just went up another $10K when we could see what we had to do to repair past mistakes.

Remodel is fun, you just never know what you will run into.

[Eneto-55]

2 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Just a photo for laughs.

This house was over 100 years old .... I believe this was a open porch at some time, then someone closed it in .... then later it actually turned into a bearing wall.

When opening up a older house, you just have no idea what other people have done in the past. .... IIRC, there was a old live wire buried in this wall that I immediately removed before even thinking about taking the photo.

 

 

Just one of those jobs that was suppose to be fairly simple .... looked nice on the exterior under the stucco siding ....

Looking at the photo it is just WOW! .... This is exactly the reason I always did remodel by the hour and not on a direct bid.

 

The projected cost of the job just went up another $10K when we could see what we had to do to repair past mistakes.

Remodel is fun, you just never know what you will run into.

Looks like someone's motto was "Use what ever is handy."  Reminds me of my grandpa. He was born in 1893, and was possibly the only one of the children who was born in North America. Anyway, he served non-combatant in WW I, as a carpenter. He was stationed in Virginia, and they were building airplane hangers.  (There was no 'Air Force' yet - I think it was the army.)  He rode the beams up & fastened them in place.  Before WW II he owned some rental houses in our closest small town, where there was a brick factory, so lots of workers who often didn't stick around very long. Then the brick yard closed, and he couldn't afford to pay the property taxes.  So he let it all go to the government, but first he took parts of those houses and attached them to their farm house. His mother came to live in a section he had added to their house, but you had to go outside to get into it, which, as I understand from my Mom, suited Great Grandma just fine.  Then in 52 he sold the farm and built a new house on the property where I grew up (on one corner of the farm).  I was only up in the attic of that house once, and there was all sorts of old beams he had used, stuff he's saved from who knows where. Your picture reminds me of the way his attic looked.

[Los_Control]

When I bought my current house, after my inspection ..... It was a original unmolested home that does need some updates/upgrades .... just the fact nobody really messed with it in the past, made it worth buying in my opinion.

 

Like buying a old car, yes it is old ... but because it is basically original and just maintained .... it is worth fixing.

 

I imagine your house built in 1965 is not that bad, just needs some upgrading .... back then they built homes good.

In the 1970's they started using aluminum wiring instead of copper .... you dodged that bullet.

 

Just enjoy the process ... curious on future situations you come across.