Mysterious P15 braking problem

[Eneto-55]

On 7/12/2024 at 4:46 PM, Los_Control said:

If you are young and dumb you can correct that. I was 15 years old and had a 1963 Rambler .... it was a big job for me to replace the clutch in it.

I had no $$ left to fix the brakes .... So I just pinched off the brake line going to the left front wheel ... so it obviously pulled to the right.

 

The old hippie I sold the car to for $100 just laughed, at least it pulls you into the ditch and not oncoming traffic.

Just saying, we can adjust such things.

 

In your case, I probably would want to completely disassemble the brakes and use a wire wheel to clean the backing plates, I would clean every moving part and probably paint .... not needed though .... then properly grease all pivot points.

If everything else is correct they should work fine .... @soth122003 had a great point, any brake fluid on the shoes they need replaced .... grease and such from your hands you can clean off. .... not brake fluid though.

Bit of a redneck question, but just curious - If the brake linings are riveted (not glued - wouldn't want to risk that), would acetone remove the brake fluid?  

[Los_Control]

9 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

Bit of a redneck question, but just curious - If the brake linings are riveted (not glued - wouldn't want to risk that), would acetone remove the brake fluid?  

Just my opinion.

If they are dirty with grease or fluids from your hands while working on them, then you can just clean them up.

 

If they are saturated with brake fluid from a leaky wheel cylinder for any length of time, the shoes will absorb the oil.

Now you clean the surface and they look clean, then the oil inside the shoe will seep back out to the surface again. Some say you can never make them right again.

 

 

[46Chris]

All this information has been a great help, and I really appreciate this community.  My mechanic confirmed that the shoes were replaced at the same time as the wheel cylinders and brake lines, and said they looked brand new.  He had adjusted them so that each shoe was lightly scraping the drum (and the drums are smooth).  While there is still some pull to the left on hard braking, I will do some experimenting with repeated hard braking as another member had done, to see if that clears it up.  I know I can replace the shoes, which I'll consider after taking care of a few other items.  The car drives so well that I've decided to keep it, and instead sell our '48 Buick Sedanet.  I had bought the Sedanet at auction (a long-time bucket list car) this spring, but have come to realize that I like the Plymouth better for a number of reasons.  It's in amazing overall condition with zero rust or rust repair.  As soon as I got the car I had 4 blackwall radials mounted after painting over the rim rivets.  Runs smooth with no smoke, good clutch, reasonably tight steering, still has some original paint.  It came with documentation on what appears to be a dealer-installed reupholstering job that looks really nice.  Over the weekend I bought sound deadening panels and a maroon carpet kit, along with a paint restorer and a set of new pads for my buffer. Also bought an underdash universal temp gauge that included a selection of glandnuts.  The needle had somehow detached from the dash gauge.  I may eventually tackle that job, but seeing temp gauges in the $300+ range plus the R&R challenge convinced me to go the easy route for now.  Will test in hot water before installing.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Like your seat cover, somewhere around here I should have about 6 of these covers...they new old stock and only reason I grabbed them was if I should ever need a pattern.  Colors and patterns similar to what you have.  Serious old school stuff.   just commenting, NOTHING FOR SALE here......!

[46Chris]

36 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

Like your seat cover, somewhere around here I should have about 6 of these covers...they new old stock and only reason I grabbed them was if I should ever need a pattern.  Colors and patterns similar to what you have.  Serious old school stuff.   just commenting, NOTHING FOR SALE here......!

Not sure what the woven pattern material is, definitely not cloth fabric.  Very festive looking.  I had found an old brown Chrysler Corp envelope in the trunk that held the seat cover install instructions.  I had previously incorrectly stated "dealer installed" when I should have noticed they were just manufactured by Chrysler Corp and could have been installed by anyone.  

[Eneto-55]

Plymouthy Adams beat me to it, but yeah, those are seat COVERS.  If they were installed by the dealer at the time of the original sale, then the original upholstery is very likely underneath, in perfect condition. People back then had a long term view about vehicle care, and it was common to never actually sit directly on the original fabric - it was too nice.

 

I did something like that with the carpet in a 7 year old Chrysler Town & Country minivan (2nd Gen, 1993 - the best looking minivan ever, in my opinion) we bought when our children were small. They had hardly ever ridden in cars before that, and both easily got car sick. I had covered the entire floor with heavy clear plastic, and it paid off on one of the first car trips. Our son was pretty young, and didn't say anything about feeling sick. It was still a mess, but sure a lot easier than trying to clean out the carpet. We had the 'throw carpets' on top of the plastic, so I just took the soiled one into the motel room, and soaked it in the tub. Then i twas dry by morning.

Edited July 16 by Eneto-55

[Eneto-55]

9 minutes ago, 46Chris said:

Not sure what the woven pattern material is, definitely not cloth fabric.  Very festive looking.  I had found an old brown Chrysler Corp envelope in the trunk that held the seat cover install instructions.  I had previously incorrectly stated "dealer installed" when I should have noticed they were just manufactured by Chrysler Corp and could have been installed by anyone.  

 

I don't have a Dodge (just a Plymouth), but if you have a scanner, I would like to have a copy of that paper, both sides.  (And the envelope, too!)

Edited July 16 by Eneto-55

[FarmerJon]

One thing that I found when recently working on a pair of backing plates (for a 12" brake upgrade) was that the adjuster cams on a couple adjusters did not move when the bolt head was turned. The cam is only held on by the end of the bolt being expanded like a pop rivet. Rust had stuck the cam, but not the bolt, so it was able to turn without changing the adjustment. 4 small tack welds on each got everything working correctly. 

Maybe something similar has happened with yours, so the adjustments aren't making the changes they should be.

[Los_Control]

10 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

Chrysler Town & Country minivan (2nd Gen, 1993 - the best looking minivan ever, in my opinion)

👍

 

 

 

[Eneto-55]

30 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

👍

 

 

 

This is your 94 2nd Gen, correct?

[Los_Control]

2 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

This is your 94 2nd Gen, correct?

It is a 93, I just installed a 94 engine in it a few weeks ago. .... not perfect but is a good work horse and we enjoy driving it.

[46Chris]

1 hour ago, Eneto-55 said:

I don't have a Dodge (just a Plymouth), but if you have a scanner, I would like to have a copy of that paper, both sides.  (And the envelope, too!)

No scanner.  Photos are the best I can do, attached.

[46Chris]

1 hour ago, Eneto-55 said:

Plymouthy Adams beat me to it, but yeah, those are seat COVERS.  If they were installed by the dealer at the time of the original sale, then the original upholstery is very likely underneath, in perfect condition. People back then had a long term view about vehicle care, and it was common to never actually sit directly on the original fabric - it was too nice.

 

I did something like that with the carpet in a 7 year old Chrysler Town & Country minivan (2nd Gen, 1993 - the best looking minivan ever, in my opinion) we bought when our children were small. They had hardly ever ridden in cars before that, and both easily got car sick. I had covered the entire floor with heavy clear plastic, and it paid off on one of the first car trips. Our son was pretty young, and didn't say anything about feeling sick. It was still a mess, but sure a lot easier than trying to clean out the carpet. We had the 'throw carpets' on top of the plastic, so I just took the soiled one into the motel room, and soaked it in the tub. Then i twas dry by morning.

Appreciate your idea, since I wasn't even thinking they could have been installed for protection.  I did find an old notebook in the glove box with some very early service entries, which might indicate a conscientious first owner.  When I take out the front and rear seat bottoms to install the sound deadening panels and the new carpet, I'll pull off the front seat leading edge hog rings holding the covers in place and take a look at the original fabric.  Stay tuned.

[TodFitch]

5 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Just my opinion.

If they are dirty with grease or fluids from your hands while working on them, then you can just clean them up.

 

If they are saturated with brake fluid from a leaky wheel cylinder for any length of time, the shoes will absorb the oil.

Now you clean the surface and they look clean, then the oil inside the shoe will seep back out to the surface again. Some say you can never make them right again.

I agree with this in general but will toss out that I’ve heard of contaminated brake shoes being salvaged by soaking them in gasoline then setting them on fire to remove the gasoline and contaminates. Personally, I’d get the shoes relined or replaced before I tried this. If you do try it, make sure you do it in a fire safe place and be really careful.

[Merle Coggins]

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with brakes that pull in one direction upon application... The fault may actually be on the opposite side of the direction it pulls. The general consensus is that the brake is "grabbing" and making the vehicle pull in that direction. But sometimes the brake on the other side is being lazy and not applying as it should. This could be caused by seized components, or by a failing flexible brake line. 

[Los_Control]

4 minutes ago, TodFitch said:

I’ve heard of contaminated brake shoes being salvaged by soaking them in gasoline then setting them on fire to remove the gasoline and contaminates

I was thinking to toss a idea out there myself, if not in any hurry ... with the shoes on the work bench you could clean them .... a day or so later clean them again.

Just keep it up for a week or so .... will it work? .... Is it worth it? ..... our shoes are easy enough to get, to me just not worth it.

 

If they were some rare shoes hard to get .... soaking them in gasoline might be a viable option.

Just my opinion, fire could cause more damage then good. Gasoline will evaporate .... so if the shoes were soaked for a day or so, long enough to thin down and remove the oil .... then let the shoes dry a few days .... it will just evaporate naturally.

[Los_Control]

4 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with brakes that pull in one direction upon application... The fault may actually be on the opposite side of the direction it pulls. The general consensus is that the brake is "grabbing" and making the vehicle pull in that direction. But sometimes the brake on the other side is being lazy and not applying as it should. This could be caused by seized components, or by a failing flexible brake line. 

Merle is correct as always. ..... like all brakes they need to be moving freely and with 75 year old cars this is more of a issue then with newer cars.

 

My personal advice on these brakes, you need to be involved with them and willing to work on them yourself.

There is nobody out there that will care for and have as much interest in these brakes as you the owner.

It was the best braking system available in it's day ..... today they are obsolete. ..... There are only a few of us around that know these brakes and work on them.

You are not going to find a 30 year old mechanic that gives 2 hoots about this old obsolete braking system .... I almost guarantee you will be his only customer .... not worth their time to learn it properly.

A custom shop that only works on old vehicles, will be expensive and try to talk you into a modern disk brake conversion and is the most practical way to go.

 

If you are willing to be the mechanic and work on the brakes yourself ..... then it is feasible to keep them ..... They are not self adjusting, the best working brakes need a routine maintenance check every year or as needed, if you drive it year around. .... Only you can do this. With the amount of love and care @keithb7puts into his brakes.

The help and information is here and available.

 

If you are not willing or capable, I recommend you save yourself headaches and update the brakes. Rustyhope sells a front disk brake conversion kit that you will need a mechanic to install .... sadly the rear end needs to be updated to get modern rear brakes. ..... A jeep cherokee or Ford Explores will fit and use same wheel bolt pattern.

You can get modern brakes for not a lot of $$, easy to work on, easy to get parts .... any mechanic can work on them .... will work for years with no maintenance .....

Again the modern yoke on the rear end will not fit your obsolete u-joints ..... you need to change the yoke on transmission as well and get a drive line built for it.

 

So there is a little investment up front, The car looks totally stock at car shows, you have modern u-joints, choice of rear end gearing, modern brakes .... The car runs and drives as original .... you just eliminated a bunch of future headaches. ..... trouble free miles without having to worry about brakes, u-joints, rear end leaks.

Later update the distributor with the slant 6 electronic distributor conversion and add a alternator ..... You will have a trouble free car you can drive anywhere any time with no major headaches as we get older.

 

It will run and drive just like it does now, it will show just like it does now .... it will simply be more dependable and trouble free ...... set goals.

 

You either learn to work on it and we will help and you work on it yourself .... or you need to upgrade a few things ..... IMHO

[Eneto-55]

2 hours ago, Los_Control said:

It is a 93, I just installed a 94 engine in it a few weeks ago. .... not perfect but is a good work horse and we enjoy driving it.

So, help me remember (from the minivan site), it's a Dodge, and you put a Chrysler PenteStar on it? (The grill threw me off on the year model.)

[Los_Control]

5 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

So, help me remember (from the minivan site), it's a Dodge, and you put a Chrysler PenteStar on it? (The grill threw me off on the year model.)

It is just a Dodge Caravan SE model ..... basic low level trim and hood ornament is stock. Was bought new from a school teacher and used to haul around students to after school events.

Nothing custom or modified about it .... just special because wife mother was the 2nd owner on it and father kept it up good .... now it is the daughters car.

[Eneto-55]

I haven't done the disk brake upgrade, but for the sake of some future owner, maybe your son or daughter, or a grandchild, or who ever, document the parts that were used. Not all of the parts store employees will recognize some 20 year old brake calipers.....

 

I may do that project on mine at some point in the future, but I'm not crazy about disk brakes.  I've had more time and mileage between brake jobs with drums than with disks.  Maybe I'll be able to find some self adjusting drum style brakes that can be installed, maybe even larger diameter.  Loren has done some research and work on installing larger drums, instead of going with the disks, and I like that idea.

 

EDIT - Correction:

I said "self-adjusting", but I was thinking of "self-energizing".  (There may be other terms used for this design - I forget things, and had to look it up.)

 

EDIT 02:

I'm actually a bit confused about what constitutes a self-energizing brake design.  I understand how the single cylinder type works, but it seems to me that the dual cylinder type on our cars are also self-energizing, although perhaps to a lesser degree.  I know there was discussion about this here before, but not sure where, or when.

Edited July 17 by Eneto-55
Correction, Additional Comments

[Eneto-55]

6 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

It is just a Dodge Caravan SE model ..... basic low level trim and hood ornament is stock. Was bought new from a school teacher and used to haul around students to after school events.

Nothing custom or modified about it .... just special because wife mother was the 2nd owner on it and father kept it up good .... now it is the daughters car.

That's right - the difference with the star is that the Chrysler has the 'glass-look' center.  (One of the parts I kept off of our 93, as a "rembranca" - memory piece.)

[DonaldSmith]

Update on my 47 DeSoto:  (I've had the problem of the brakes pulling to the left after a few idle months.  A few miles of neighborhood panic stops clears up the problem.)

 

Yesterday I removed the hub and drum and looked closely at everything.  

 

The PO did the brakes more than 20 years go, using DOT 5.  But everything looks good, like new.  No excessive wear.  Linings look good.  No sign of brake fluid leaks. 

 

I did see a grit coating things, maybe normal brake dust.  But at the bottom of the backing plate, the grit was greasy.  I couldn't see if the inner grease seal has been leaking;  I ordered a new one anyway. 

 

Theories?  Very slow migration of axle grease to the backing plate and shoes?   Normal driving enough to dissipate, burn off, the grease?  Right wheel only.

 

(I'm having trouble downloading my photos, for a closer scrutiny.  I might go out and stare at the brakes again, looking for inspiration, or an "Aha!" moment.)   

 

 

  

[DonaldSmith]

Rick Hartung told me he had the pulling problem, despite his mechanic trying everything.  Finally the mechanic milled a bit off the shoes, problem gone. 

 

With my limited resources, I pulled the right front drum, visually checked things, brake-dusted everything off, and sanded the shoes a bit.  I performed the minor adjustment on all four wheels, all eight shoes.  Stopping fine.  If it begins to pull again after a long hiatus, I'll resort again to the panic stops through the neighborhood.  Keeping fingers crossed. 

.