Improving Plymouth Brakes

[Loren]

I've been round and round on this topic, not that I think Plymouth brakes are bad or inadequate. They work when in good repair.

I don't believe in scrapping what the car came with just to be modern. In my years of experience I know that disc brakes CAN be better but seldom are.

I have gone to the trouble of swapping the Plymouth 10 inch drum brakes for Chrysler Windsor 12 inch brakes. This is something I've seen several old timers do and I find it appealing as the car is still all MoPar and period correct. The idea being that I want a car that a dealer mechanic of the time would have built for himself using the best of the MoPar parts bins.

 

An article in the Cascade Pacific Plymouth Club April 2024 news letter caught my eye headlined, "Consider brake booster instead of disk conversion?" by Robin Will.

"A young man just across the aisle from us at Portland Swap Meet told me something I didn't know and its worth passing on. He was selling add-on brake booster units. He said that drum brakes themselves are not usually problematic in old cars; the problem was more often with the pressure that could be delivered to them with original equipment hydraulics. Getting a booster on the system can bring old brakes up to current standards without the expense of a disc brake conversion for folks who love to drive their cars every day."

 

What was not mentioned in the article that I know from my experience is that bigger brakes do not lower the pedal pressure required to stop a car. In fact disc brakes don't stop any better than drums because to reach their full potential they require a brake booster. I know I'll get some heat on that statement but I have examples of cars that evolved over time and had drum brakes one year, front disc brakes another year and finally disc brakes with a booster later on. The boosted brakes certainly were better, while the front disc only brakes weren't noticeably better. Bigger drum brakes will have better heat rejection capability and thus less fade. Great for mountain driving or towing or racing but not a dramatic improvement every day. To reach their full potential they need to be boosted as well.

 

Back to what would a period dealer mechanic have on his car?

Well Chrysler used a "Remote" Brake Booster on some models. The brakes were all the same except they added this remote booster. The first time I saw such a thing was on a 1968 Volvo P1800 which had one for each brake circuit. I can tell you that car had brakes that worked very nicely indeed. Finding a vintage Chrysler remote brake booster might be an expensive challenge ( not saying it would be impossible but... ) However the aftermarket has substitutes remarkably CHEAP.

When you google "Remote Brake Booster" they pop up all over the page for as low as $65 from Walmart of all places! They are imported of course for that price ( China perhaps ) Units that swap out the original master cylinder for an integrated booster/master cylinder are like $500 to $1,100 and I can't imagine they provide as much bang for the buck ( Perhaps "Bang" is not the right word to use when talking about brakes. lol ) If you dive deeper into the suggested usage for these devices they seem to work for similar weight cars like a Plymouth. Since they are small they will fit in the same place as the old Chrysler booster on the left frame rail behind the master cylinder.

So there's an idea for discussion.

[Ivan_B]

A remote booster can certainly be installed, and is often considered for classic cars. Some cars used it stock; never dealt with these, but read that these might be not very reliable. I would definitely not recommend looking for a vintage unit, though.

The booster is expected to greatly improve the performance, however, I would probably still recommend to do the original brakes properly first to see how that works. Because, it seems that:

a) on 90% of classic cars the original brakes are not working correctly, and people falsely complain that the brakes themselves are bad

b) using a booster with the original brakes not working properly is a questionable way to fix them

c) using a booster with the original brakes (even 100% functional to specs) would allow you to do things that the car was probably not designed for

 

[61spit]

What about this type of booster unit. E-Z Hydraulic Power Brake.

[Ivan_B]

This is exactly the kind of vintage solutions I was referring to. How old is it? Are there rubber parts inside?

 

[61spit]

The instruction sheet is dated 1954 at the bottom so I'm guess that is when it was made. I don't know if there are any rubber parts inside the unit. No rubber parts showing.

[Ivan_B]

There are probably some o-rings inside, which could use replacing, but that's not as bad as a 50-years old diaphragm   So, this is not a hydro-vacuum unit? How does it work, where is it getting the extra power from? Modern versions attach to the power steering, or use electric power, etc. I cannot find any details on it. The instructions indicate that it connects instead of the master cylinder end cap.

[61spit]

I have no idea about the o-rings inside. It is not a hydro-vacuum unit. It must be increasing the hydraulic advantage from the master cylinder to the wheel cylinders with the same amount of pedal travel. I'm not a hydraulic engineer so don't know what the theory would be behind that. Maybe like the new style floor jacks that have a lot of lift from one stroke on the handle?

[Ivan_B]

I suspect that if it was that simple, we could just play with the volume difference between the master and slave cylinders or, even simpler, just use a longer lever at the pedal... 😅 I am, now, curious, I'll look it up. Maybe I should get myself one of these too, after I go over the brakes 🤔

[Plymouthy Adams]

I will not say something like this could be effective, I am saying something like this may not be practical.....there is a good reason this setup is not being used today....let you figure that one out....☺️ 

[Ivan_B]

1 minute ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

let you figure that one out....☺️

I am not finding any information about a "stand-alone" (no vacuum, no pump, no electricity) hydraulic brakes. Come on, how do they work? Something silly like pumping the pedal 50 times in advance to build-up pressure? 🤣

[Plymouthy Adams]

as I see it, it is hydraulic over hydraulic.  

[Ivan_B]

Hmm, something like dual lever metal cutting scissors, where they play with two shorter levers instead of a single big one? 🤔

Have you ever used these brakes? Do they provide noticeable boost? How about not getting stuck in the applied position?

[61spit]

I haven't installed the unit so can't give any feedback on how well it works. Maybe someone else has experience with this unit.

[desoto1939]

since you have the installation instruction sheet is there anyway that you can make a clearer copy of this so that we can all read it.

 

The instruction sheet might also explain how the unit works. This is a neat concept so the information is good to know incase someone else finds a unit at a swap meet.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[desoto1939]

Currently there are two of these units on Ebay for a cost of $150. Not sure if the poster on the forum is the same seller

 

2 Vintage NOS 1953-1954 Plymouth Dodge DeSoto E-Z Hydraulic Power Brakes #11030

 

Rich hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Ivan_B]

I've read the instructions completely, there is no info about operation principle. It just states at the end that the pedal might feel softer and have more travel

If @Plymouthy Adams is correct in his assumption, I suspect that this operates as an additional cylinder, effectively changing the "leverage" in the existing system.

 

I also saw the eBay listing. 150 is a bit high for an experiment, but if someone is willing to split the cost, I'd take one

@Loren Are you in, on this?

Edited April 30 by Ivan_B

[61spit]

9 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

Currently there are two of these units on Ebay for a cost of $150. Not sure if the poster on the forum is the same seller

 

2 Vintage NOS 1953-1954 Plymouth Dodge DeSoto E-Z Hydraulic Power Brakes #11030

 

Rich hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

No, it's not me.

[Loren]

Hmmm

I've never seen those.

Here's a photo from the Walmart site of what I am talking about.

[48ply1stcar]

After reading this I am so thankful that I was able to buy a complete Scarebird system in 2020, ,from some who changed his mind and went with ECI. Four years without an issue and I still room for improvement.

[Plymouthy Adams]

1 hour ago, Loren said:

Hmmm

I've never seen those.

Here's a photo from the Walmart site of what I am talking about.

 

 

 

that was one of the most popular brake boosters on the market and been around for decades on end....basically your Midland remote unit

[Ivan_B]

 

That looks like a hydro-vacuum unit.

[andyd]

Here in Oz the local brake manufacturer PBR had 2 remote boosters available from the mid 1960's, there were and are known as the VH40 and VH44 boosters and are regularly used to increase the stopping power of drum brakes and even some early disc brake systems.........they are very similar to that pic that Loren posted.........andyd   

[Tired iron]

My 1960 Ford F600 had a hydro booster very similar to this and it sat behind the cab on the frame rail (standard master on the firewall). I'm not familiar with the antique add-on in question here, but I do know you can't cheat the laws of physics.  If there's no extra energy added (vacuum or electric) its then further travel or harder push on the pedal.  you can't get something for nothing! 

[kencombs]

On 5/1/2024 at 9:52 AM, Tired iron said:

My 1960 Ford F600 had a hydro booster very similar to this and it sat behind the cab on the frame rail (standard master on the firewall). I'm not familiar with the antique add-on in question here, but I do know you can't cheat the laws of physics.  If there's no extra energy added (vacuum or electric) its then further travel or harder push on the pedal.  you can't get something for nothing! 

That read part is true for sure!   They are laws, not suggestions.

[denmopar]

I'm the guy who bought those "E-Z" power brake add-on cylinders that were on eBay. I didn't pay full price, as the units were not on my list of priorities for my two 1954 Belvederes.

I agree with" Plymouthy Adams" regarding hydraulic staging...The units fit onto the master cylinder with a special adapter.

They were produced by an outfit called "Pyritz Manufacturing Co." in Indianapolis, indiana in 1954.

Will I ever install one to see if they actually work? - Maybe, only after I finish the body/paint work on my yellow car and overhaul the 10G overdrive transmission for the Coral car and install it.

Simple curiousity made me buy them.