Rebuilt Starter Won't Start

[Bingster]

Okay. So the old 4-post starter on my 47' De Soto turned the engine over a few times a month ago, but a week later no go. When the two large terminals were later crossed, the starter spun but nothing from the smaller relay posts on the top.  I deduced it was a bad rely, and when I came across a NOS relay on Ebay for $80 I bought it and took the starter and the NOS rely to a local guy to have him make the damn thing work.

 

Okay. So I went to pick up the starter, and I saw it had a shiny new 3-post relay sitting atop the starter about where the old one was. He said the NOS relay I brought him didn't work, but when I pressed him he seemed to say that he didn't know if the NOS relay I brought him was any good cause he went ahead and installed the new solenoid because a guy in the parts biz he knew had one 6v. starter solenoid left in stock and they put it on my starter. The guy's web site that I bought the NOS relay from said that all his parts had been tested. I have to assume it's actually good.

 

Okay. Took the rebuilt starter home, put in back on the car ( what a b____) and no start.  As of right now I'm still troubleshooting, but I have a question that may make a difference, and I'm not sure that this guy could give me an accurate answer.

 

I've gone over a lot of "how a starter works" You Tube videos and of course I had to compensate for positive ground and a 3-post solenoid instead of four. I know how the terminals work and what they're for, so I won't bore you with that. But what I did see on the videos is that the hot wire going from the battery to the starter is a heavy gauge, and I have that covered, but the wire from the push button on the dash to the thinner post on the solenoid is a much lighter gauge wire. But it's still hot from the diagram I've been pouring over.

 

Obviously, I think, the amperage of the large wire from the battery terminal is much higher than the smaller gauge wire from the starter button. I've been trying to trace where and how the higher amp hot from the battery converts into a smaller amp wire. Seems to me that the smaller wire has to have a lower amperage, but where was this conversion made in the wiring diagram? Or did it? And am I risking burning out the new relay if I apply straight battery higher amperage juice to the new lighter gauge post on the solenoid. Am I making any sense?

 

Lucky for me the colder weather has been unusually spotty this time of year and there's still some 47 degree weather in the mix. I'd like to get this car started before Spring.

 

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

I feel your pain but the only advice I can give, you need to start doing your own repairs....did you get your solenoid back from the man....?

[desoto1939]

binster: what was the Autolite starter replay number that would have been stamped on the mounting flange of the starter selinoid? The correct selinoid should have been SS-4705.  If you purchased a new one for $85 you got a great price.  These special starter selinoids ss-4705 are very hard to find and the mechanic new that information.

 

So again as Plymouth asked did you get the NOS ss back from the mechanic and also post the number on that unit and the number onthe unit they installed.

 

refer to the attached document on autolite starter selinoids.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

 

 

Autolite Starter Controls.pdf

[maok]

Just to answer your question regarding the thin and heavy wire to the solenoid, I am guessing a little because I don't have a wiring diagram of your car, the heavy wire is probably the horn wire and it should be connected to the large post on the solenoid. The thin wire is the start wire, coming from the starter switch from your dashboard.

 

Can you post a wiring diagram.

[Bingster]

Yes, I got my NOS relay back.  There is a guy on You Tube who bought an S-11 like mine, took the 4-post solenoid out and has a 7-part series on this very same starter as mine.  Old Crow's Classic Cars.

His relay is exactly the same as mine.  However, the number on the Auto Lite NOS box seems to be 861500. Maybe the guy I bought it from put the NOS relay in another box, but it's the spitting image of the guy's on You Tube, which is identical to mine. I can't tell the guy I bought it from that it's no good because I don't really know till I can test it.

 

If my NOS relay turns out to be good can give it a shot at rebuilding it myself. Doesn't look too difficult.  I will tell you that the new solenoid the guy put on for me is a very tight fit. Not much clearance.  But I guess the solenoid would do something even if the plunger was was stuck.

 

Rich, I didn't see any number on your chart that matched mine. Something's amiss.

 

Maok, I didn't see any horn wire attached to the starter solenoid in the diagram. Lower left large post wired to the starter motor, large lower right post to the battery negative hot, upper right small post to the horn button and the upper left grounded to the generator.

 

 

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Might be a good idea to do your troubleshooting on the bench until you figure out what is going on.....a whole lot easier on the (your) body!

[Bingster]

Yeah, I should have bench started it before I put it on. Kinda dumb.

[desoto1939]

Binster what is the numbers on the two selinoids. Need those to help identify if you have the correct number. Also in your parts book what is the correct mopar number for the starter selinoid?  All information is needed.

 

The selinoid that I sent you with the autolite information is the type that mount on top of the starter motor. I did a lookup of 861500 and this is not even close to the type that bolts onto the top of the starter motor. Attach some pictures some can compare the starter selinoids.

 

This is what your starter motor and starter selinoid should look like the big black part is the selinoid that is bolted to the top of the starter motor.

 

Rich Hartung

Edited December 12, 2023 by desoto1939

[Bingster]

The De Soto parts book lists the number for the "Switch, Starting Motor, Assembly," Solenoid type as 957 467

 

The relay is listed as 861 500.

[Bingster]

Yes, my solenoid is stamped ss4705.

[desoto1939]

7 minutes ago, Bingster said:

Yes, my solenoid is stamped ss4705.

So then you do have the correct starter selinoid.  You aso have to remember that most of the parts were supplied by Autolite corp so the parts willbe stamped with their numbers and not always the Mopar numbers.  This is why i have always stressed to try to find and purchase the cross over catalogs such as the autolite catalog so you know what specific part you need.

 

Rich Hartung

[Bingster]

I think what the repair guy did was test the solenoid and when it didn't work instead of taking it apart he just ordered a new one. I found the one on-line that he got. He should have called me and gave me a choice. What if I wanted to keep it original? 

Rich, can you tell me why there is a smaller gauge wire coming from the push button on the dash to the relay terminal?  My solenoid is stamped 10 amp.  Will straight amperage from the battery burn the relay out?  I haven't been able to ascertain where the push button is picking up it's hot wire from. There is the ammeter and the ignition switch in the mix.  

[joecoozie]

Here's the wiring diagram if anyone wants to look at it.

 

[desoto1939]

Binster: you need to review your specific wiring diagram for your car and follow each wire from the specific connection point on the selinoid and trace it back to the starting point on the dash such as the push button starting switch, the amp, also the wire to the sisson choke.

 

This is why you always need the service and repair manual for your car so you can trace the wires. Also look at the ends of the wires that you currently have in the car that would have been attached to the selinoid. Try to find the guage of each wire that will tell you alot about each wire and what gage Mother Mopar used. If any doubt then increase the gage to the next biggest wire size.

 

Rich Hartung

 

 

[kencombs]

Which solenoid is currently on the starter, new 3 term or old 4 term?     I'd be curious as to how the 3 terminal was wired, specifically how the relay coil was grounded.  Your original was grounded to the generator I believe.  

 

As to the wire gauge and amps, one has to remember that amperage (current draw) is determined by the load, not the power source.  So a small wire connected to battery voltage, like your starter button wire, will only have the power draw demanded by the load, the relay coil.  

[Bingster]

Ah, that makes sense about the wire. Thanks.  The starter is in the car but has not been able to be started yet.  Yes, the older 4-post solenoid was grounded to the gen.  If the new 3-post doesn't work, I'm going to rebuild the original starter because I do have a relay to put on it.  I hope somehow I get a starter that works.

[Bingster]

Thanks, Rich. I have a crude voltmeter.  Any suggestions for a good, not too expensive one?

[Bingster]

Joecoozie, thanks for the color diagram. I had purchased a commercial one off eBay years ago but I cannot find it.

[desoto1939]

6 minutes ago, Bingster said:

Ah, that makes sense about the wire. Thanks.  The starter is in the car but has not been able to be started yet.  Yes, the older 4-post solenoid was grounded to the gen.  If the new 3-post doesn't work, I'm going to rebuild the original starter because I do have a relay to put on it.  I hope somehow I get a starter that works.

 

Binster: so from what your are saying the starter was gone over by the mechanic and then he put on the three contact selinoid.  Assuming that the starter was the original starter from your car.  You also ststed that you have a NOS 4705 selinoid which is the correct one for your car which is a four post model.  So replace the three post selinoid with the four post and run the wires to the correct post on the 4507 selinoid.

 

If the starter motor is good like the mechanic stated and you have a NOS selinoid then the car should start do not over think the issue. Use what you have currenlty.  Yur car requires the 4 post to run and start.

 

Try this first and then let us know what happens. Study the wire diagram and then you should be able to figure which wire go where.

 

Rich Hartung

[Bingster]

On the diagram, I seem to see a terminal on the coil in the middle between + and -.  It leads to the transmission rely Bat.  My coil only has + and -. 

[Bingster]

Thanks Rich.  I guess I'll just chalk it up  to experience. Seems like it might be a hassle trying to haggle my $126.00 back. He was nice. Only charged me $15.00 labor.  Supposedly the guy owns classic cars from the sixties. But you'd think that he might know that the three-poster would not work.  So I guess that upper left smaller post that is grounded to the gen actually needs to be grounded to the gen for the original solenoid to work. The new solenoid isn't, and therein lies the rub.

 

What would I have done if I couldn't repair the 4705?  What starter would I be able to use?

[maok]

 

If you pull the starter out, it can easily be tested on the bench, with or without the either solenoid attached.

 

Post a pic and we can give you guidance on a ' how to bench test'

[Sniper]

There are four terminal on your original solenoid.

 

Two big ones and two little ones.

 

The big ones connect the battery to the starter motor, inside the solenoid. 

 

The two small ones makes the solenoid operate.  One has to be voltage from the key in start, the other has to be grounded.

 

For the three terminal solenoid the only difference is that the ground side of the solenoid is done internally.

 

If you put voltage on the one small terminal on the three terminal solenoid is should engage and kick the gear out as well as send voltage to the starter motor making it spin  If that does not happen it is bad.

[joecoozie]

This one is a bit clearer

[Sam Buchanan]

Two points.

 

If you have a multimeter that will read voltage when you touch the battery terminals it is sufficient for this troubleshooting, a more expensive meter isn't needed.

 

The three terminal solenoid should work if the wiring is correct and it and the starter aren't defective.