Seat Belts

[Malu]

I'm wondering if I need to fit seat belts to the Dodge truck. I was hoping the forum could answer & advise?

[Plymouthy Adams]

As was written on another forum just this week there is no state requiring seatbelts in a classic not originally equipped till date 1964.  However when it comes to minors riding in the car, this no longer applies as child seats are mandated.  Also, if you install, you are required to use these seatbelts.  Again however check your local statute. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

I am working on a small Brit car. while it was originally set up for 3 point, their supplied non-retractable SLOP belts just was not anywhere close to my idea of belts.  Their carpet was not sewn with darts for fitting the tunnel so I also cut and sewed my own.  I found in the wrecking yard a set of modern 3 point that are not only retractable, but aesthetically pleasing.  I flipped the center buckles 180 for the purpose of having the angle ready at hand for buckling and not be on the floor.  It also worked great as I wire the seat belt light into the console I made as a reminder to buckle up (Volvo indicator)  All in having fun building the way you wish and if you can visit a local yard to check on what is available, you will find great units at often great prices.  These cost me 10.00 for the set of two including hardware and the yard manager helped me remove them too boot.  Best of luck to you on you quest for belts.

 

 

 

 

[Eneto-55]

5 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

As was written on another forum just this week there is no state requiring seatbelts in a classic not originally equipped till date 1964.  However when it comes to minors riding in the car, this no longer applies as child seats are mandated.  Also, if you install, you are required to use these seatbelts.  Again however check your local statute. 

A question for you, or for anyone who knows: Are the child safety laws Federal, or State?  I wouldn't want to "try to get around them" anyway, but isn't it forbidden to have young children in the front seat everywhere?  (Or is there some sort of exception for vehicles that only have a single seat?) 

 

I may not get my car finished and on the road while I still have young grandchildren, but I plan to do the whole 9 yards - 3 point belts in front, and the child restraint clips between the upper and lower sear cushions in the rear.  Yeah, we rode loose back when I was a kid, even on the package shelf at times (when us 4 boys in the back seat had trouble getting along), but I don't want that for my grandchildren (or for anyone else's children).  (Our youngest grandchildren right now are around 6 months old, so maybe I will make it.)

[Los_Control]

I wonder what the laws are in Canada, if they are the same as in USA?

 

My plans as I get my truck ready to be a daily driver, I do have to go through a safety inspection for registration ... yearly.

Since seat belts and turn signals are not required, I will leave them out for now. Just get the basics done thats needed to be a legal driver.

 

Now when I install my new wiring I will include the turn signal wiring also ... I can install everything else at a later date.

 

Same with seat belts, I think I would prefer to have them just to keep me from bouncing around in the seat too much ..... My wife will insist on them.

I will add them at a later date.

 

Just to keep things simple and get going, I'm not spending anytime on them now.

 

Although I have been working all day on the seat base and installation, I am thinking ahead on where & how I will install the seat belts. Making sure I leave provisions for them for future use.

[Plymouthy Adams]

More on point but still a step beyond most seating in the old Plymouth, my custom build also got factory 3 point belts that I installed from the donor vehicle that is 95% of the components used to make if full operational.  Again, none of this is all that hard or involved, I still suggest a walk in the wrecking yard if possible and you may find a system that is primo for retrofit. 

 

 

 

[Eneto-55]

2 hours ago, Los_Control said:

I wonder what the laws are in Canada, if they are the same as in USA?

 

My plans as I get my truck ready to be a daily driver, I do have to go through a safety inspection for registration ... yearly.

Since seat belts and turn signals are not required, I will leave them out for now. Just get the basics done thats needed to be a legal driver.

 

Now when I install my new wiring I will include the turn signal wiring also ... I can install everything else at a later date.

 

Same with seat belts, I think I would prefer to have them just to keep me from bouncing around in the seat too much ..... My wife will insist on them.

I will add them at a later date.

 

Just to keep things simple and get going, I'm not spending anytime on them now.

 

Although I have been working all day on the seat base and installation, I am thinking ahead on where & how I will install the seat belts. Making sure I leave provisions for them for future use.

Just a thought, but if you want to have shoulder belts, I'd suggest welding in the attachment point in the B pillar before paint and other finishing touches.  I don't have an old PU, but as I recall, there isn't any ready structure in that area of the cab, and I would personally want the height adjusters as well, in case a shorter person wants to drive it, too.

[ggdad1951]

I have none in FEF, it's weird and kinda scary, but as a restoration I don't want to add them.  Especially since I don't know if adding would make any injuries better or worse (the level of engineering going into how and what a seat belt does is WAY above just slapping a belt in a vehicle).  Is it better than none because you don't get ejected, or does it tear you in half, or does it save you? Just my opinion.

 

[Eneto-55]

ggDad,

Definitely agree that there is a lot of engineering involved.  I've tried to acquaint myself with the theory behind the restraint systems, especially as concerns the shoulder belt.  All that stuff about a doubled back rip section in the belt that allows a bit more 'feed' in the belt after the initial impact, to lessen the effects of 'suddenly coming up short'.  Or, the mechanical deal in the retractor that lets out a bit more belt.  From what I've read, a very important feature is to implement restraint of forward motion as soon as possible after initial impact, then ease the restraint a bit after that.  The first car I had with a shoulder belt was a 72 Coronet.  It had a separate belt for the 3rd point, with no retractor.  That meant that you couldn't lean forward while you had it on.  That made a better immediate support in the event of an impact, but it also increased the likelihood that it wouldn't be used.  (Although my observations about this are purely theoretical, because the only 'accident' I was involved in with that car was in a Sears parking lot.)

 

Another concern I have is to make sure that the attachment point on the B pillar is not going to just give way when the weight of the upper body comes against it.  I think that not having that shoulder belt might be better than having a piece of the inner part of the B pillar come whipping past your neck, if it is jerked out of there.  I don't think that the inner B pillar sheet metal on the 4 door P15s is strong enough for this function without some additional reinforcement, to attach it securely to the main B pillar.  (That area is only spot welded in a few locations, at least on my 46.  It wasn't designed to withstand that type of force.)

[Los_Control]

4 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

I don't think that the inner B pillar sheet metal on the 4 door P15s is strong enough for this function without some additional reinforcement, to attach it securely to the main B pillar.

The trucks have same issue, there is a sheet metal cover for upholstery purposes .... not qualified for seat belt duty.

My plan is to build a anchor point then weld it to the cab itself. Will have a captured nut welded into it so that a anchor bolt can attach the seat belt.

Good weld penetration will damage the exterior paint .... so yes, I need it before paint.

 

I feel like the proper engineering has been built into the seat belts by the mid 90's anyways. Proper installation to make them effective will be our job as the installer.

 

5 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

Is it better than none because you don't get ejected, or does it tear you in half, or does it save you? Just my opinion.

In my experience, seat belts will flat out F***K you up! ..... While saving your life     .... Pick your poison.

 

I spent a month in hospitals, I did not exactly walk away from it. All my injuries were from seat belt damage. Broken pelvic, ribs,collar bone, internal injuries.

Everything was caused from seat belts ..... I can only imagine what damages I would have if I did not have a seat belt on.

A seat belt would not have helped a passenger in this case, the dash was over the seat ... their legs would have been cut off and bled to death at least.

Pissed me off because I wanted my laptop while recovering, the dashboard had pinned it to the seat and wife could not get it.

 

 

 

To be honest, if we get hit this hard in one of our old cars ..... were going to die with or without seat belts.

I personally will feel better with them. Modern cars are engineered for crash safety better.

 

At the very least they will hold me in place while the 6' long spear the steering wheel is attached to impales me in the chest   

 

 

 

[Tooljunkie]

My wife insisted on seat belts, and i overbuilt the mounts top and bottom. I agree with the non-collapseable steering column being an issue. So my next builds will include an updated column. 

[Malu]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:34 PM, Eneto-55 said:

Just a thought, but if you want to have shoulder belts, I'd suggest welding in the attachment point in the B pillar before paint and other finishing touches.  I don't have an old PU, but as I recall, there isn't any ready structure in that area of the cab, and I would personally want the height adjusters as well, in case a shorter person wants to drive it, too.

Good thinking Eneto, there is no way to anchor a seat belt, but I will try and find a way.

[Malu]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:47 PM, Los_Control said:

The trucks have same issue, there is a sheet metal cover for upholstery purposes .... not qualified for seat belt duty.

My plan is to build a anchor point then weld it to the cab itself. Will have a captured nut welded into it so that a anchor bolt can attach the seat belt.

Good weld penetration will damage the exterior paint .... so yes, I need it before paint.

 

I feel like the proper engineering has been built into the seat belts by the mid 90's anyways. Proper installation to make them effective will be our job as the installer.

 

In my experience, seat belts will flat out F***K you up! ..... While saving your life     .... Pick your poison.

 

I spent a month in hospitals, I did not exactly walk away from it. All my injuries were from seat belt damage. Broken pelvic, ribs,collar bone, internal injuries.

Everything was caused from seat belts ..... I can only imagine what damages I would have if I did not have a seat belt on.

A seat belt would not have helped a passenger in this case, the dash was over the seat ... their legs would have been cut off and bled to death at least.

Pissed me off because I wanted my laptop while recovering, the dashboard had pinned it to the seat and wife could not get it.

 

 

 

To be honest, if we get hit this hard in one of our old cars ..... were going to die with or without seat belts.

I personally will feel better with them. Modern cars are engineered for crash safety better.

 

At the very least they will hold me in place while the 6' long spear the steering wheel is attached to impales me in the chest   

 

 

 

Wow! with no accelerating power in these old trucks, I won't be taking any chances. 

[Malu]

1 hour ago, Tooljunkie said:

My wife insisted on seat belts, and i overbuilt the mounts top and bottom. I agree with the non-collapseable steering column being an issue. So my next builds will include an updated column. 

Hi Tooljunkie, I'm not sure a collapsible steering column will help and I hope to stay as close to original build as possible. 

[Malu]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:47 PM, Los_Control said:

The trucks have same issue, there is a sheet metal cover for upholstery purposes .... not qualified for seat belt duty.

My plan is to build a anchor point then weld it to the cab itself. Will have a captured nut welded into it so that a anchor bolt can attach the seat belt.

Good weld penetration will damage the exterior paint .... so yes, I need it before paint.

 

I feel like the proper engineering has been built into the seat belts by the mid 90's anyways. Proper installation to make them effective will be our job as the installer.

 

In my experience, seat belts will flat out F***K you up! ..... While saving your life     .... Pick your poison.

 

I spent a month in hospitals, I did not exactly walk away from it. All my injuries were from seat belt damage. Broken pelvic, ribs,collar bone, internal injuries.

Everything was caused from seat belts ..... I can only imagine what damages I would have if I did not have a seat belt on.

A seat belt would not have helped a passenger in this case, the dash was over the seat ... their legs would have been cut off and bled to death at least.

Pissed me off because I wanted my laptop while recovering, the dashboard had pinned it to the seat and wife could not get it.

 

 

 

To be honest, if we get hit this hard in one of our old cars ..... were going to die with or without seat belts.

I personally will feel better with them. Modern cars are engineered for crash safety better.

 

At the very least they will hold me in place while the 6' long spear the steering wheel is attached to impales me in the chest   

 

 

 

I don't think we would be chatting today.

[Malu]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:07 AM, ggdad1951 said:

I have none in FEF, it's weird and kinda scary, but as a restoration I don't want to add them.  Especially since I don't know if adding would make any injuries better or worse (the level of engineering going into how and what a seat belt does is WAY above just slapping a belt in a vehicle).  Is it better than none because you don't get ejected, or does it tear you in half, or does it save you? Just my opinion.

 

Hi ggdad1951, what about cross belts on the seat itself?

[Malu]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:50 AM, Eneto-55 said:

ggDad,

Definitely agree that there is a lot of engineering involved.  I've tried to acquaint myself with the theory behind the restraint systems, especially as concerns the shoulder belt.  All that stuff about a doubled back rip section in the belt that allows a bit more 'feed' in the belt after the initial impact, to lessen the effects of 'suddenly coming up short'.  Or, the mechanical deal in the retractor that lets out a bit more belt.  From what I've read, a very important feature is to implement restraint of forward motion as soon as possible after initial impact, then ease the restraint a bit after that.  The first car I had with a shoulder belt was a 72 Coronet.  It had a separate belt for the 3rd point, with no retractor.  That meant that you couldn't lean forward while you had it on.  That made a better immediate support in the event of an impact, but it also increased the likelihood that it wouldn't be used.  (Although my observations about this are purely theoretical, because the only 'accident' I was involved in with that car was in a Sears parking lot.)

 

Another concern I have is to make sure that the attachment point on the B pillar is not going to just give way when the weight of the upper body comes against it.  I think that not having that shoulder belt might be better than having a piece of the inner part of the B pillar come whipping past your neck, if it is jerked out of there.  I don't think that the inner B pillar sheet metal on the 4 door P15s is strong enough for this function without some additional reinforcement, to attach it securely to the main B pillar.  (That area is only spot welded in a few locations, at least on my 46.  It wasn't designed to withstand that type of force.)

I'm wondering if something can be done with using the seat as an anchor point. The seats in my dodge 51 are well anchored to the floor but there is still the buckle clip that can do a lot of damage to the body.

[Los_Control]

My neighbor has a 53 Ford sedan with original seats. He has just lap belts installed in it. And fine with them.

 

I did some work on his car awhile back, one of the things was moving the bench seat back a few inches .... He's a big boy.

I did not re-install the seat belts right away because I wanted him to drive it and see if the seat would work for him or if it needed to be moved some more.

He is a EMT and has been to many car accidents over the years, he was very insistent on wanting the belts put back in.

 

I think it would be very doable to anchor a lap belt to the seat base.

 

 

[greg g]

With a body on frame vehicle YOU DO NOT WANT BELTS ANCHORED TO THE FRAME.  

You don't want to be tied to the frame while the body pulls away from its base.

[kencombs]

Having seen a lot of wrecks working in my Dad's salvage in the 60s and 70s, my truck is getting a late collapsible column.   Most head on totals we got in had the steering wheel bent badly from body contact and some 'biological' remains on them.  

 

IMHO any seat belt is an improvement over none.  You might still get hurt, but the odds were likely be better.  Regarding attachment points, it is beneficial to have all in shear, not tension.  Bolts can pull thru sheet metal without proper reinforcements and shear loading makes that much easier to prevent. 

 

My column is from a 79 or 80 Firebird with floor shift.  So I don't have the ugly remains of an auto shift to deal with as I have a 4spd overdrive floor shift trans.   Also gets me integrated turn signal and dimmer as well as a locking column.

 

Part of the choice was driven by my desire for power steering.  I have the mounts done except for final welding and paint to mount the 85 Toyota pickup gear.  I have the u-joint to adapt it to a double-d shaft  mating the column.   I'm leaning toward a Volvo electric pump rather that an engine driven pump.  

2 hours ago, Malu said:

Hi Tooljunkie, I'm not sure a collapsible steering column will help and I hope to stay as close to original build as possible. 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by kencombs

[Eneto-55]

3 hours ago, Malu said:

I'm wondering if something can be done with using the seat as an anchor point. The seats in my dodge 51 are well anchored to the floor but there is still the buckle clip that can do a lot of damage to the body.

That's what I plan to do in my Plymouth (4 door).  But I don't think that the seat track adjustment mechanism is hefty enough to handle the weight of the seat PLUS the occupants' weight.  It wasn't designed for that.  So I will be looking for some modern seat tracks to build into my original seat, then beef up the seat frame to give adequate support for the seat belts to be attached to the seat frame itself, instead of through to the floor.  But I'm also thinking that way on the car because the back of the front seat has a foot rest built into it, and that would have to be cut in order to feed the belts through, and then the attachment points would be in the rear seat passengers' foot area. (Otherwise the belts would angle sharply down just past the back of the lower seat cushion.) There shouldn't be that sort of issue in a pickup.  (But as others will tell you (if they haven't already), don't attach the seat belts through the floor TO THE FRAME.  You don't want to be the thing that holds the cab on the frame if it wants to break loose in a collision.)

 

(Regarding the shoulder belt attachment on the B pillar - the adjusters I'm planning to use came out of a 93 Chrysler Town & Country.  I had kept the seat tracks for quite a long time, too, but took them to the scrap yard in a moment of weakness.  So now I have to find others.)

 

Regarding the steering column - That's also something I've thought of a fair bit.  My girl friend from back in HS, her dad was killed in an accident where he was impaled by the column shaft.  That happened at least some 10 years before I met her, when I was 17 or 18, so in the early 60's.  I don't think any American production cars had shoulder belts back then.  I visited her for the last time in the Spring of 1975 when I was 19 (she lived about 5 hours drive from me - we had met while serving as 'camp counselors' at a church camp for 5 & 6th grade kids), and her mother & step dad's car was the first one I'd ever seen that had shoulder belts in the back seat.  Her mom had insisted on that modification.

 

But the question I still have is whether this type of injury is because the upper body is flung forward, or if the vehicle frame collapses behind the front axle, pushing the steering column back into the driver's chest.  I can understand the risk for more modern vehicles, where the steering sector is AHEAD of the front axle, but that's not the design on my Plymouth, at least - It is BEHIND the front axle, and the frame is boxed and very beefy in that area.  I tend to think that the key is to restrain the upper body from forward movement as soon as possible upon impact.  I think that this type of steering column got that reputation in the era before shoulder belts, and it has just stuck with it.

[Los_Control]

I do not know about the cars, our trucks have a seat base that is brazed to the floor. It is mounted pretty solid to the cab.

Then the lower seat tracks will unbolt from the base.

I'm suggesting that a guy could remove the seat, then reinforce the 18 gauge base with some 3/16" metal. then attach the lap belts to the base.

It would be just about the same as a factory installation with the belts bolted to a reinforced floor?

 

Now my base is already modified some for installing bucket seats. It would not be a big deal to add lap belts to it also.

The belts would work the same for a factory bench seat or buckets.

 

In my case I have mid 90's Chebby Silvarado seats, if you get into the 2000's, they come with 3 point shoulder harness built into the buckets.

They should bolt right into place as my existing seats .... so I'm not spending a lot of time yet on them ... just replace the seats when I find some.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Los_Control

[ggdad1951]

20 hours ago, Malu said:

Hi ggdad1951, what about cross belts on the seat itself?

I dunno, lap belts tied to the seat are the simplest option people generally do.  It all comes down to how and where they anchor.  What kind if tensile load the attachment points can take on the belt to frame and frame to cab seat pan.  If I remember right, the frame mounts to the slide rails with 1/4" bolts, that when stock, are not all that high of grade likely and the metal tab's strength itself.  If you want to go this option, I'd beef up all those or all you'll do is tear the seat off the pan and not really do much else. 

[Eneto-55]

3 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

I dunno, lap belts tied to the seat are the simplest option people generally do.  It all comes down to how and where they anchor.  What kind if tensile load the attachment points can take on the belt to frame and frame to cab seat pan.  If I remember right, the frame mounts to the slide rails with 1/4" bolts, that when stock, are not all that high of grade likely and the metal tab's strength itself.  If you want to go this option, I'd beef up all those or all you'll do is tear the seat off the pan and not really do much else. 

My thoughts as well (for the P15).  I don't know how many 1/4" bolts are used on the PU, but the P15 bolts are probably the same size (or the next size up at most), and there are 2 of them at each of the four seat frame to floor mounting points (total of 8 bolts).  But the seat rails themselves are not as heavy of steel as what was used on the 93 Chrysler T&C, as a 'modern' example.  That's why I doubt if the original seat frames are strong enough to withstand the additional load of the passengers, in a collision.  (But I want to keep the original bench seats, so will rebuild all of the actual structure underneath, just keeping or reduplicating the seat "shell", which is just thin sheet metal, and would no longer be a part of the main structure.)

[Malu]

1 hour ago, Eneto-55 said:

My thoughts as well (for the P15).  I don't know how many 1/4" bolts are used on the PU, but the P15 bolts are probably the same size (or the next size up at most), and there are 2 of them at each of the four seat frame to floor mounting points (total of 8 bolts).  But the seat rails themselves are not as heavy of steel as what was used on the 93 Chrysler T&C, as a 'modern' example.  That's why I doubt if the original seat frames are strong enough to withstand the additional load of the passengers, in a collision.  (But I want to keep the original bench seats, so will rebuild all of the actual structure underneath, just keeping or reduplicating the seat "shell", which is just thin sheet metal, and would no longer be a part of the main structure.)

Thank you Eneto and everyone that gave information on seat belts. I am a bit worried about taking my grandchildren for a drive in the PU when it's ready for the road. I will try an find an option to my problem or never drive the grandchildren in the PU.