First Start-Up Woes

[Ivan_B]

[Sam Buchanan]

30 minutes ago, Ivan_B said:

 

It is my understanding the above photo is the factory orientation of the distributor, rotor position when pointing at #1 at TDC is at 7:00 o'clock.

 

However, the distributor may be installed 180 degrees opposite from the standard position as is the case on my car. The rotor on my distributor points at 1:00 o'clock when firing #1 at TDC. Either installation works fine when the plug wires are clocked accordingly. The two different installations are dependent on how the oil pump was installed.

 

It is imperative that #1 at TDC at compression be determined prior to installing the plug wires.....details provided in previous posts.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Sam Buchanan

[Bingster]

Right.  I watched Keith (Garage) videos on TDC and ignition and he did explain there are two rotor starting positions depending on whether # 1 or #6 are in compression stroke.  Right? I believe I have it sorted out. Keith said, as far as I can tell, that the factory setting isn't #1.  He had a mark at about #7 it seemed to me. Now, he also explained how the position of #1 and #6 could also make the rotor stop at one o'clock. This is like roulette. He said it would work either way as long as you keep the wires straight. Or as you say, his photo of the distributor may be upside down.

 

One thing I am not certain is the TDC.  #1 and #6 are both TDC simultaneously, only when one is on the compression stroke the other is exhaust. Right?  I get how to get to TDC using the pipe hole above #6.

 

Then there's putting your finger or a piece of tissue or a ping pong ball over a cylinder to see where the compression is. Only thing, when you do that, do the other plugs have to be in their cylinders? And which plug hole do you check for compression? Seems to me like #1 or #6, and I'm not sure why.

 

If I can understand that little piece of missing info I think I'll have it down. I have also watched videos on cleaning distributor points, setting the gap, etc. and I feel very comfortable to have a go at that.  I don't know whether to make what I have work or buy a new condenser, set of points, and rotor. They aren't expensive. Napa says they can get them. Rock Auto as well.

 

Thanks to all of you for giving me your info and along with my watching some videos, I was able to read the shop manual over again and put it all together.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sniper]

20 minutes ago, Bingster said:

One thing I am not certain is the TDC.  #1 and #6 are both TDC simultaneously, only when one is on the compression stroke the other is exhaust. Right?  I get how to get to TDC using the pipe hole above #6.

 

Then there's putting your finger or a piece of tissue or a ping pong ball over a cylinder to see where the compression is. Only thing, when you do that, do the other plugs have to be in their cylinders? And which plug hole do you check for compression? Seems to me like #1 or #6, and I'm not sure why.

 

It would really depend on which cylinder tower the rotor in the distributor is pointing at.

 

You can pull all the plugs if you want, but that will make the engine turn over much faster with the starter, that might make it tougher to get close. 

 

Since both #1 and #6 are at TDC simultaneously you want the one that is on the compression stroke, I like the ping pong ball idea, put one on #1 and #6's spark plug hole so you know which is on the compression stroke. That will be the cylinder that should be firing..  Once you get that one lined up to the timing marks, you may be able to tug on the fan belt to align things, having all the plugs out would help this.  Look and see if the rotor is pointed at the correct plug wire.  If so you should be ok there.

[Los_Control]

Just now, Bingster said:

there's putting your finger or a piece of tissue or a ping pong ball

Just lay the tissue paper flat on the hole.... do not apply pressure to it .... when it moves is because of compression from the cylinder.

That is what you are looking for ..... some just put a finger over it to feel the air movement .... is difficult to tell with low compression & calloused fingers.

Light & fluffy tissue paper works every time .... as long as the wind is not blowing.

 

Installing a geared distributor in my past experience. I want the rotor to point at 7 O'clock when done.

To make this happen I need to rotate the rotor pass the 6 O'clock position. Then as I lower it ends up at 7 position.

Sometimes I do not get it right the first time so I need to pull it back out and try again starting with the distributor rotated more ... Might take 2 or 3 tries to get it exactly right.

 

Our distributors are slotted and run off the oil pump ... So it is either right or 180 out.

The oil pump is geared like a distributor .... So you follow the manual, you install the oil pump with much caution ... just stupid easy to get it 1 tooth off.

Many people do .... thats why my #1 is at 6 O'Clock instead of 7 O'Clock like the manual suggest.

I screwed with it for a week or so trying to figure it out .... Was not til I removed the timing plug, set #6 on TDC compression ... set the wires .... the engine started almost instantly.

 

Some mechanics just dropped in the oil pump & #1 ends up at 3 O'clock position ... They still run the same wired correctly .... you need to learn this.

No book in the world would tell me how the last mechanic installed my oil pump .... I had to use the timing plug provided to find this out myself .... you need to do the same.

 

I'm just saying your engine is different or unique ... It may follow the manual or it may not .... many do not ... you can not look at pictures and assume they work on your engine.

 

 

 

[Dave72dt]

14 hours ago, Bingster said:

 

 

One thing I am not certain is the TDC.  #1 and #6 are both TDC simultaneously, only when one is on the compression stroke the other is exhaust. Right?  I get how to get to TDC using the pipe hole above #6.

 

Then there's putting your finger or a piece of tissue or a ping pong ball over a cylinder to see where the compression is. Only thing, when you do that, do the other plugs have to be in their cylinders? And which plug hole do you check for compression? Seems to me like #1 or #6, and I'm not sure why.

 

 

 

 

 

The other plugs do not have to be in the cylinders but it makes it easier to turn over by hand if they are out.  You use 1 and 6 because the pointer and the mark on the pulley will line up when at TDC for those two cylinders.  If the tissue or pingpong ball moves from cyl 1 as the engine comes up to TDC, that's the cyl on compression.  If the tissue or ball moves on cyl 6, that's the one on compression.  You can time it from either cylinder.  The rotor should be pointing at the cylinder's wire that's on compression.  The timing can be refined from that point

[keithb7]

Piston #1 at TDC. Yet you could be mis-led as #6 is also at TDC at this point.  One piston will be at TDC of the compression stroke , the other will be at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke. You need to find out exactly which piston is at which point in the 4-stroke cycle. The tissue idea or ping pong ball, or your thumb on top of the spark plug hole will determine exactly which TDC position a piston is at.  A piston traveling up, with both intake and exhaust valves closed will force air out of the spark plug hole. That is the position you need hone-in on.  If a piston is traveling up and not blowing air out the spark plug hole, the exhaust valve for that cylinder is open. That particular piston is then on the exhaust stroke.  This is not the TDC position you want to use for timing your spark. The spark for a cylinder must fire when the piston for that cylinder has created compression inside the cylinder. That only occurs 1 time in the 4 cycles of a 4 stroke engine. 

 

In this particular straight 6 engine #1 and #6 have the exact same throws on the crank shaft Meaning #1 an #6 piston will always be at the exact same position inside the cylinder. The only difference is the valve timing. The two cylinders are out 360 degrees of each other in the 720 degrees of a 4 stroke cycle.

 

If you study the 4 strokes of an (engine, intake, compression, power, exhaust) you will see that 2 strokes make up 1 full 360 degree turn of the crankshaft.  A single "stroke" is the piston traveling one direction fully up or fully down once. The crankshaft must rotate 2 times or 720 degrees for all 4 strokes to be complete. The cycle then repeats again over and over. The piston going to the very top of the cylinder 2x every 720 degrees of crank rotation.

 

These 4 strokes, another way to think of it:

 

- Stroke 1: Intake stroke, the piston goes down all the way to the bottom of the cylinder. Drawing in air and fuel.

- Stroke 2: Piston goes back up for the compression stroke. Now you are at exactly TDC to set your spark timing.

- Spark fires here now at this time.

- Stroke 3: Combustion sends the piston back down to the bottom of cylinder. 

- Stroke 4: Intertia, along with the help of other cylinders firing, brings that piston back up to the top of the cylinder. Pushing the burnt gasses out of       the cylinder,  Piston is now at TDC again.

- Start over at Stroke 1 again.

Can you see how the piston will be at TDC 2 times in the engine cycle? Only 1 time there is fuel in the cylinder to fire. The spark has to fire in correct order of the list above.

 

I often talk about how I like to 100% know an engine is at TDC to set the valves. Also if wanted set the ignition timing. When a piston is at TDC of compression stroke, both intake and exhaust valves are fully closed. You can confirm this by feeling the valve tappets. Wiggle them up and down. You can only move them by the amount the valve lash is set at. Only 1 time in the 4 stroke cycle are both valves perfectly closed, is during the compression stroke. This is the only time both valve tappets of 1 cylinder can both be wiggled up and down in their bores.

 

When you determine #1 is at TDC of the compression stroke, take the distributor cap off. Where is the rotor pointing to? Take the rotor off. Look at the points and hexagon of the points ramp. A peak of the hexagon cam should be at it's apex and have the points pushed open now. At this point is where you set your points gap. Do so, then put rotor and cap back on. The spark plug wire going to #1 cylinder's spark plug goes into the cap hole, right over where the rotor pointer is currently sitting. Then working your way clockwise from #1 wire, insert wires 5, 3, 6, 2, 4 into their holes in the rotor. Follow each plug wire from the rotor to each spark plug. Make 100% sure they travel to the proper cylinder order as written. 

 

If you have a good battery, 6V going to a good coil, no ground shorts, a good condenser, points, plug wires and decent plugs, fuel in the cylinder, valves that seal at least somewhat, somewhat half decent compression, an open air intake passage through the carb, she'll fire.

 

I hope this helps you.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by keithb7

[Bingster]

Well thanks, Keith! I appreciate your time to get that down. I'll bring all of this to the car and slowly go through the explanation.  I thought that your two videos on TDC and the other with the distributor and oil pump a great help, especially explaining the piston strokes around that sign.

 

I saw a guy yesterday on YouTube with a ratty-looking '36 something or other.  Another "will it start?"

 

At first of course it didn't.  Then he dressed the points. Tried for a spark. Said he saw one at the points. I couldn't. Then he tried the coil test with the wire on the engine. Good coil. Then he tested the spark at a plug. Good spark, I still couldn't se it.  Finally he poured gas into the carb and tried firing it up. No go. After this a few times it finally fired up and ran.  I see this kind of thing time and time again on these barn find derelict cars. Some take a few tinkers to fire while others they have to get into the engine and make things work.

 

When I my '47 Desoto  car about ten years ago it fired right up.  So now it's process of elimination. Thanks again to you and everybody who took the time to explain this stuff.  Engines are not my strong suit. I'm more of a body and paint kind of guy.

[soth122003]

30 minutes ago, Bingster said:

Engines are not my strong suit. I'm more of a body and paint kind of guy.

Since you said that I have a DEAL for you. I'll trailer my 48 up to you. You paint it and make it look good and I'll get your car running for you. LOL You can even make an Earl Shives special.

 

Joe Lee

Edited September 24, 2023 by soth122003

[Bingster]

Gee, that sounds good. Mmmm. Let's see.  No, I 'd better pass this time.  When I was a kid an Earl Schibe paint job was $25, as I recall. And my uncle Joe who wanted to paint his blue Fairlaine black couldn't afford it.  I cannot see how you could paint a car for $25 with paint, supplies, and labor and still come out with decent profit. Of course, I always multiply money back then by ten for today's price. That would be $250.00  Still . . .

[Bingster]

I was looking at Keith's distributor video, and new points seem to be identical circumferences, i.e., like two dimes clicking together.

 

On my car, the top point is small than the bottom. Worn?