Daydreaming .... sort of

[Solga]

Ok, so I picked up an 8.8 disc brake rear end like super cheap, and at the car show this weekend, I got a line on a running Dodge 440 for pennies on the dollar.  The guy is holding the engine for me so there isn't an issue there. 

I guess my question is, would it be possible to shoehorn a 440 into the engine bay, without destroying it to the point of no return ?

 

And anyone actually swap a Ford 8.8 into a 40's WC ?

 

Edit: this is for my '46 WC, that isn't exactly original to begin with.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Solga
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[Los_Control]

I wonder what the 8.8 came out of? Is often suggested to use a Ford explorer rear end because of the width & it is a 8.8 ..... Could it be from a wider truck?

 

The WMS (wheel mating surface) Is what you will need to measure now to compare it to your original rearend.

 

FWIW, I heard of a guy swapping in a full size chevy silverado rear end for the 5 on 5 bolt pattern. It was 2" wider but fit well using his Cadillac wheels with a reverse offset.

Just saying your 8.8 probably will be ok, still need to measure it now.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Los_Control

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

You will most likely loose things like the clutch, brake peddles, & floor starter. Some of things to me, make it unique to a vintage dodge truck. More power is really cool on the drag strip, but when folks look in the cab, they most likely will see a street rodded old truck with an automatic trans floor shifter. 
  You can do a few things to modify the flathead, still will never be a 440. I personally love original or time period correct mods.

 

just my opinion and it’s your truck! Best, Kevin  

Edited September 25, 2022 by 47 dodge 1.5 ton

[Solga]

2 hours ago, Los_Control said:

I wonder what the 8.8 came out of? Is often suggested to use a Ford explorer rear end because of the width & it is a 8.8 ..... Could it be from a wider truck?

 

The WMS (wheel mating surface) Is what you will need to measure now to compare it to your original rearend.

 

FWIW, I heard of a guy swapping in a full size chevy silverado rear end for the 5 on 5 bolt pattern. It was 2" wider but fit well using his Cadillac wheels with a reverse offset.

Just saying your 8.8 probably will be ok, still need to measure it now.

The 8.8 came out of a 2001 Explorer.  I have seen a few charts that list widths of a lot of rear ends for Chevy, Dodge and Ford. And on those charts, they all show the Ford Explorer 8.8 at really close to 60" (59.8") and the Dodge rear ends in our trucks at 60". Now granted, I am not sure what exactly the measuring points on those specs are, but I figured if it's all on the same chart,  so hopefully it's close enough. Good to know about the WMS measurement points, I will definitely be double checking those as well !

 

1 hour ago, 47 dodge 1.5 ton said:

You will most likely loose thinks like the clutch, brake peddles, & floor starter. Some of things to me, make it unique to a vintage dodge truck. More power is really cool on the drag strip, but when folks look in the cab, they most likely will see a street rodded old truck with an automatic trans floor shifter. 
  You can do a few things to modify the flathead, still will never be a 440. I personally love original or time period correct mods.

 

just my opinion and it’s your truck! Best, Kevin  

 

I will probably end up buying the 440 regardless if I put it in my truck. They are just getting REALLY hard to find these days.  I will be staying with a manual transmission, regardless of the direction I end up going.  For as hard as engine parts are getting to find anymore, I like the idea of having something more modern to work on, and the availability helps. And to be completely honest, when it comes to this truck, I don't care about the power level.  I would like to get the v8 hot rod thump if at all possible, but I could care less if it is 250 horsepower or 750.  Putting the 440 in the truck is more of a novelty idea, or a pipe dream, to be completely honest... It was a happy thought anyway ?

Edited September 25, 2022 by Solga

[Los_Control]

Just now, Solga said:

The 8.8 came out of a 2001 Explorer. 

You will bee fine on the width & the bolt pattern for the wheels.

There are 2 more obstacles to overcome.

First thing is the spring perches will not line up. This is a 1949, it could be different then your 1946.

The lower plate is also the shock mount & comes off when you unbolt the U-bolts.

 

 

The areas circled is called the spring perch. Your explorer 8.8 will also have these perches but in the wrong place to fit your truck.

So you will need to cut & grind them off of the 8.8.

Many stores such as Tractor supply sell new spring perches for home built trailers. .... Just not a huge deal to change them.

Naturally you will want to change your hardware ( U-bolts) while at it. .....

You will need to mock it up & set the correct pinion angle before you final weld the new perches.

 

The 2nd issue is the U-joint connection from the drive line. Depending what U-joints your truck has, that may be a different topic .... there are options here. can be a very easy fix. ..... If you are installing a different engine trans you will need a new drive line made anyways.

 

3rd thing is the brakes. ..... If you had a older 8.8 with drum brakes, you could probably swap it in & leave your existing brake system alone .... Rear disk you will probably want to update the entire brake system to work properly .... I doubt any car manufacturer anywhere used rear disk with front drums & a single pot master.

 

You have the right rear end, probably the easiest of any to install, just some things to remember.

 

 

 

[Solga]

I can't thank you enough for this information !  There is a place about 6 blocks from me that sells all sorts of trailer & RV supplies, so I will check with them first on the spring perches.

This is probably me overthinking things, but about setting up the proper pinion angle ... should it be set for an Explorer, or a Dodge WC ?  I do plan on going with a lower (not slammed) stance on the truck, so is that something to be factored in as well ? 

I did consider the brakes, and figured since I am wanting disc brakes up front as well, I would end up changing the brake system around, when I got the rear end finished up and put in.  The thing is, this is where I am coming up short on the decisions... I haven't completely decided on a drivetrain for it.  I would really like to keep the 218 in it, but parts are just so darn hard to find any more. I would also like to be able cruise comfortably and safely highway speeds and at distances.  So many decisions, so little $$ and time ?

 

Adam

[Los_Control]

A lot of things to be considered on pinion angle. ....  I can only give a few examples.

 

When you set your engine in place .... typically you want your carburetor/engine sitting dead level. Now your transmission will follow this example.

 

Now your drive line going to the rear end will be a different story. ....  If it ran directly level to the rear end .... It would cause vibration & be a bear to drive.

 

So we have pinion angles. You will need to learn this. Usually rotating the pinion down or up for 3-5 degrees will be good.

Next is the simple fact your 8.8 rear end has already offset the angle by running a shorter tube on one side. The drive line goes to the passenger side because of the change.

 

Many have installed the small block or 318 engines in your truck ... often they move the engine to the right to clear the headers with the steering box. Obvious new cars did the same Like Explorer.....  Just saying some sort of pinion angle is important.  So you will need to study this.

 

 

 

[Solga]

18 hours ago, Los_Control said:

A lot of things to be considered on pinion angle. ....  I can only give a few examples...

 

  Just saying some sort of pinion angle is important

 

 

 

Again, thank you very much for the information !  It gives me some good starting points, and references of things to look up !

 

[Los_Control]

It's really easy to say you have just about the easiest rear end to install in your truck, just slap some new spring perches on & go.

There is some thinking involved installing the perches .... but a simple process.

 

Another bigger issue is the U-joints. My truck has what is called Cleveland u-joints. ..... I would guess your truck does also... maybe not.

 

I do not think you can mount the Cleveland u-joint to the Explorer yoke. .... Most likely end up having the yoke on the driveline changed to fit your standard u-joint rear end.

 

That would not be a bad thing. Several years ago the Cleveland joints were almost impossible to find new. Then a few years ago I heard a source opened up but they were like $80 each .... No idea if they are still available today ..... I would also have the driveline shop change my front yoke on the trans to something standard and eliminate them.

But if you are going to install a different engine/transmission, you will end up with a different driveline anyways.

 

The next thing on the rear disk brake rear end, is making the brakes work safely. No car manufacturer ever put disk on the back with drums up front.

I think Braking is approximately 60/40 with the front being 60% .... now you are looking at a front disk brake conversion. ...... This is called "project creep"

Because now you are looking at a new master cylinder.

You want the 440? you are now talking more creep.

 

I think a person really needs to think what they want their end outcome to be. At this stage you may be better off doing the Dodge Dakota frame swap.

[Los_Control]

What I mean is .... I love this build thread, the guy has so much energy and powered right through it and built a great truck.

 

While my project is much more milder ... & slower  ???.

I have different expectations. My goal is to put it back to functioning original as much as possible. It will be the most simple way possible & the cheapest just to fix what I have.

My biggest goal right now is putting paint on places that has not seen paint in many years. Getting grease & lube to all the places needed ... rewire it & drive it.

90% of my driving is in town between 25mph - 35mph .... Once or twice a month I will drive 25 miles to the next town. I'm happy with a truck that will drive 45-50 mph.

 

This is my build.

 

 

Point is @Radarsonwheels builds a great truck. .... Myself I will build my truck, I will love driving it at 35mph around town to do my business.

 

What does @Solgawant? .... what condition is your original truck in?

Daydreaming is good ... most prominent builders will sit in a chair for hours staring at their vehicle deciding what they want to do. These are only questions you can answer.

[Solga]

Los,

That's just the thing ... I don't know exactly what I want at this point. I live in a very small town (population around 1,200 people) and my truck is 90% driveable right now, and I do make very short trips in it to the ice cream shop, gas station, or local dollar general (all within a few blocks) from time to time.

The only thing stopping me from driving it to work (20 miles away), or more often is the rear brakes are out.  As long as I only drive in town, at about 10-15 mph the emergency brake does a good job of stopping the truck.  I had some fluid leaks on the backing plate of my rear drums, so I did buy a set of wheel cylinders for the rear. But that was before I realized that I would need a $100 hub puller, and a $450 shoe alignment tool, to do the job correctly.  So I figured why spend over $500 in tools just to do the brakes, when I can spend $200 for a complete rear end, with better gearing, and modern brakes ? That's not to mention, I already have all the tools to work on the 8.8 ?

I do know that I won't be drag racing this truck, and I do not want it to be a trailer queen either.  My ultimate goal, is to have something that looks nice, sounds great, and I can drive (somewhat comfortably) anywhere I want, including car shows.

I don't have an issue spending a little money, I just don't like having to spend it on something, just to turn around and spend money all over again to to the same thing, differently.

[Young Ed]

To do it buy the book you technically need that tool but with some work you can either make a substitute or get them adjusted without. I have screw driver slots cut in the bolts so I can adjust and tighten them with drums installed. From the sounds of what you have want in the end the 440 is overkill. 

[Los_Control]

@Solga what gear ratio is your new Explorer rear end? ..... Something very important but not yet brought up.

I owned a 1996 Ford Explorer "sport" Just a 2 door AWD version with 4:10 gears ... was sporty & quick off the line.. I think there was at least 6 different gear ratio available for the Explorer. ..... Which one do you have?

 

Our old trucks like a gear ratio between 4:10 & 3:55 while 3:73 seems to be the sweet spot for a 90 hp flathead 6 with a 3spd trans.

My daily driver chebby has 3:08 gears.  .... Just imagine putting the 3:08 rear end in my Dodge truck. It would be a ******* to drive around town .... eventually on the highway it would get up to highway speeds ..... then on a slight incline on the road I would need to downshift from 3rd to 2nd to get enough torque to climb the hill .... You put too tall of a rear end in the truck, may be the worst driving experience you ever felt.

 

You want a Ford explorer 8.8 with drum brakes, 3:73 gears. .... Or a Jeep Cherokee with same specs. ..... 4:10 ... 3:73 .... 3:55   

Anything taller like a 3:08 .... would suck.

 

I'm all for swapping the rear end myself. just I would be looking for specific requirements before doing the work.

 

[Solga]

Young Ed, I completely agree with you about the 440 being way overkill. I just may try the brake modification you are talking about, until I can get the new rear end in anyway.  I think my biggest issue, so far, is that there just simply isn't any bolt on or aftermarket modifications available for these Dodge vehicles, like there is for the others.  If there was, I wouldn't be so gun shy about changing anything, because if I didn't like it, I could simply unbolt it and change it back.  

For example, I could get the power and drivability that I am looking for out of a more modern V6.  But if I am going to have to permanently change a bunch of things, just to get a V6 in my truck, I might as well go with a V8 and get the sound I want as well.  Which is what brought on the idea for the 440. Lol. 

Same with the ride, suspension and stance I am looking to accomplish... and another reason I went ahead and got an 8.8 instead of a cheaper/weaker Jeep rear end. If there was an easy(ish) bolt in way of accomplishing what I wanted to do, I would be doing it, instead of just daydreaming. ? Too bad the people that make the front dropped cross members don't make them any more...

 

Los,

I will have to look at the tag again, but I am almost positive that the 8.8 I got is the 3.73 ratio.  I know it came out of a V8, AWD, 2001 Eddie Bauer, Explorer. I was actually looking for the 3.55 rear end, but I found a real good deal on this one, so I grabbed it up.  I have some drag racing buddies who have put the 8.8 through some serious abuse, so I know it will take whatever I want to throw at it in this little truck.  Also, because of the popularity and availability, the gear swaps are fairly inexpensive and straight forward, should I want to swap them out later. Stock ratio in our trucks (WC) are the 4.10 / 4.11, right ?

 

Adam

[Solga]

Also, here are a few of the more recent pics of my truck.  Not much has changed though, except new wiring, the exterior door handle has been installed, the cab lights have been switched to parking/turn signals, a new turn signal switch, and all of the lights work now.

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Solga

[Solga]

A couple more quick pics

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Solga
finally got pics to load

[Young Ed]

My second truck I'm building is kind of an in-between. Original style engine modern trans and rear. Of course that doesn't help if you're trying to go lower. I'm not worried about lowering. 

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

 My daydreaming of that truck would be a 230 w/light cam, milled head, (2) carbs and dual exhaust, might even buy an O/D to add behind the transmission.
 Very nice truck, would be welcome in my garage with the flathead any day!

Edited September 27, 2022 by 47 dodge 1.5 ton

[Los_Control]

Really is a beautiful truck ..... Just looking at it you know it has been taken care of. I do not know anything about the history of the truck.

Just guessing whoever owned it before you may have done major brake work to it. ... I would fix the brakes before I painted it.

I would think the front brakes over all condition may be a indication of what the rear brakes "might"  look like.

 

Sadly the drum puller tool is almost a requirement. Will cost you the price of the tool to look & see. .... I wonder if you have a tool rental place near you?

It is possible you simply need to change the wheel cylinders & be back in business daily driving that truck. While you prepare to install the 8.8 at a later date.

 

The adjustment tool you can make. Here is one version. I have seen photos where the guy welded the all thread to a extra castle nut.  I have seen another made from pvc pipe. Was talk about using a spare brake drum & cutting slots in it .... you can get around the brake adjusting tool.

 

Myself I just got mine set up where there is a slight drag on the drums without a tool. When I finish painting the frame then will finish running the new lines.

Then when I drive the vehicle, I will get up to 20-30 mph & do a panic stop slam on the brakes .... really get the shoes set into their position.

Then I  would use the tool to properly adjust the shoes.

The idea of the tool is to get full shoe to drum contact ... it is fine tuning, you will get brakes without it though.

 

[lostviking]

Pinion angle should be the same as it is now, unless the pinion sits at a different height. Which it might. Measure the angle of the u-joint flange face on the trans, and match that at the pinion. You can buy a mag mount digital angle gauge for about $10 like I did when I swapped my Jeep rear into a 46.

[lostviking]

When you mount the 440, or really any engine. the carb mounting surface is flat, but the engine and transmission are about 2-3 degrees down. That is the way it is supposed to be. If you mounted the engine flat, the carb would face downhill to the front. Not good.

 

Again, the transmission angle is supposed to be the same as the pinion angle. I put my new perches on the rear and centered everything up. Then I measured the trans output flange and matched it with the pinion...I tacked the perches like that then pulled the rear to do the full weld.

 

I used a 95 Jeep Cherokee rear. the u-joint in my stock driveshaft (46 WD15) was the correct size to just bolt up.

[kencombs]

Just a little clarification on the angles.   Trans and pinion are the same, but one down, one up. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

yes, the trans/eng is angled down at the rear of the tranny....(be careful if reading some phasing instructions off an internet white paper as they show both angles as up DUE TO the fact they are measuring at the front of the engine and not the rear...their math can confuse you a bit.)  The rear should point up at an angle that the imaginary lines will be parallel if drawn through the centerline of the eng/trans and the pinion of the carrier.  The angle of your driveshaft you wish to keep in X range of angle as this will limit your driveshaft speed if too great, unless you are lifting a vehicle as most 4WD trucks or offroading vehicles do etc, you should fall into range without much concern here.  Also many recommend a slight difference in static angle of the pinion to be 1* less than the tranny so when under power/load the pinion will normally rise a degree or so and be in phase under power.  On offset of rear axle, which many are, the phase is also correct when these imaginary lines are parallel so do not overlook this when phasing.  As you are not resetting your engine and tranny, you only have to ensure the pinion is matching your original angle/offset...as many engines are places just off centerline in the chassis, the pinion offset is established and will be in phase by location of the perches when setting on the leaf spring, you just need to ensure the track is centered.   This is general info and you may wish to consult a well written white paper for the working limits (speed) as related to angles.

[Solga]

You all are amazing ! I can't thank you enough for the information provided !

 

I do have a quick question tho.  Do these angles matter if the driveshaft mounting flange, on the 8.8 rear end, is offset from center ? I didn't measure it but it appeared that it was closer to the passenger side.  I could be wrong about this though, I did not measure it yet.  I'll go out and double check, what I thought I saw, after my neck heals up some. Pretty sure I seriously pulled something while trying to wrestle that thing around in my shed.  I'm slowly learning that I'm not as young as my mind thinks I am...

 

Adam

[Solga]

17 hours ago, lostviking said:

When you mount the 440, or really any engine. the carb mounting surface is flat, but the engine and transmission are about 2-3 degrees down. That is the way it is supposed to be. If you mounted the engine flat, the carb would face downhill to the front. Not good.

 

Lostviking, thank you for this.  Although, I am pretty sure that the 440 will be saved for another project. Although I really like the idea of it, I have a feeling that it would require more modifying and chopping of the truck than I am willing to do to it.

I still have to open it up and check how bad the damage is, but I do have a complete 218 & transmission that was given to me a while back.  I was told that the 218 dropped a piston, but I don't know at this point. Once opened, I'll be able to see what is salvageable.  Depending on the carnage, and what all parts can be saved, I will more than likely just keep the 218 in the truck, unless I can somehow magically find a 230 somewhere.

I may go after the 5 speed swap later on down the road, but as far as the drivetrain goes, I think that will be the extent of it.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Solga
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