Wheel Hell

[Los_Control]

Just now, Sniper said:

Now I am sure someone will think wallering out that hole will make it work, but I don't think that James would be that someone. 

I agree with @Sniper here .... I feel @James_Douglas already crossed that line.

 

 

Not saying @James_Douglasdid not know better ... they are already into the car for custom wheels ... later it is not working for them .... Might be time to re-think your plan.

 

New axles can be swapped in cheap compared to custom wheels built, Disk brakes they already broke original.

Quit crying & get er did!

[Los_Control]

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

 

As I stated in a post above, the center hole on any stock Ford wheel is too small, it will not fit over the hub so you cannot bolt them on.  Almost a half an inch too small.  Now I am sure someone will think wallering out that hole will make it work, but I don't think that James would be that someone.  I did find some aftermarket steel wheels, not OEM looking, that have the right bolt pattern and a larger than needed center hole that would work, but I think James wants ones that will center on the hubs and not the lugs.  So they won't work, as is, and I have not found any premade centering rings to address that.  It might be possible for a machine shop to make something up though. 

 

There are some possibilities here, not going to call them options just yet, but it will require additional work to sort it out.

The wheel center if larger than needed in a better alternative as you can always fit a centric ring.

[Sniper]

6 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

The wheel center if larger than needed in a better alternative as you can always fit a centric ring.

 

I believe I covered the lack of a ring in my post.

[Plymouthy Adams]

and I believe I identified it by the correct name...so the forum wins in two ways....

[Sniper]

14 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

and I believe I identified it by the correct name...so the forum wins in two ways....

To be pedantically correct you would have had to call them hub centric rings.

 

But googling centric rings or centering rings would get you to hub centric rings.

 

 

[Frank Gooz]

One thing that some do not know that the lug bolts were 9/16 not 1/2 inch like most. 

Some old Jeeps were also 5 on 5 1/2 bolt pattern i am not sure about the center hole. They look like they have no lip/ punched out or bored.

James good luck to you.

 

Frank

[Plymouthy Adams]

the 79-93 still carried the 1/2-20 lug nuts though as you said the later had 9/16 and why I did not include them in my reply.  

 

 

[James_Douglas]

The three big issue is the back space. To clear the caliper it has to be about 1.9 inch. VERY few wheels have that kind of back space.

 

The only ones I have found are the Rocket Racing Solid wheels and outside laced wire wheels.

 

DB Tire has a new tire that is 16 inch with a diameter of 29.4 inch. The old DB tires I am using (yokohama) are 29.3 inch. It MAY be that I can find a steel wheel that has a offset more than 1.9 that will clear due to the larger diameter. Maybe.

 

The size of the hubs are not to be dismissed. They are much larger than the standard sedans. NOBODY makes a kit for these cars. That is why I had to work with someone to custom make it. He made one set for myself and one for a guy in Texas. He then told me that it was so much work that they were not going to put it in their catalog.

 

James.

[jsd245]

I just had wheels now make wheels for my1.5 ton truck to convert from 8.25x20 to 9r22.5. They did a good job.   I know they are buying rim shells and welding  in centers, and machining them to specification, so I don't know if this is "true custom" as you indicated. But they were the only ones I found that could do this. Give them a shot. https://www.wheelsnowinc.com/

[later]

I don't know if this will help. I am doing an ECI disc conversion and have to get different rims to clear the calipers. You download the instructions from their site. I am replacing 11" drums. I have some 17" wheels from a 2002 Chrysler 300, but have to check offset yet.

EC-758_Instructions.pdf EC-759_Instructions.pdf

[James_Douglas]

On 5/12/2022 at 11:54 AM, 48ChryslerRodder said:

I don't know if this will help. I am doing an ECI disc conversion and have to get different rims to clear the calipers. You download the instructions from their site. I am replacing 11" drums. I have some 17" wheels from a 2002 Chrysler 300, but have to check offset yet.

EC-758_Instructions.pdf 84.06 kB · 0 downloads EC-759_Instructions.pdf 80.16 kB · 0 downloads

You have the small bolt circle...mine are 5 x 5.5 with a 3.8 inch center hub, much larger.  James

[James_Douglas]

I may have come up with a solution.

 

I found a company that makes custom wheel spacers. I may be able to use an existing steel wheel and use a custom spacer to deal with the backspace.

 

The fly in the ointment may be the left hand thread. They make pug bolts to attach the spacer to the hub and the spacer has lug studs on it. The question is can I come up with left hand thread lug bolts long enough to go through the adapter and the disc brake rotors. The other fly in the ointment is will I be able to get the rear wheel off due to the fender hanging down so low.

 

The other interesting question is on wheel width. My various books show a wheel at 15x5 for the long wheelbase cars (12 inch drums) as well as 15x5.5 and 15x6. No agreement at all. Interesting is that the early production LWB cars used 16x4.5 inch wheels. 

 

A 16x4.5 can take a DB Tire that is a 650R16.  If I can find a steel wheel that size I may be able to get the rear tire off.

 

These custom adapter's open up some possibilities. I just need to run them down.

 

James

[Adam H P15 D30]

I prefer the spacers with their own lug studs.  If you jack the car up by the frame, the rear will will drop enough to get it out from under the fender easily.  That's how I do it on my lowered 49 with 8" wide rear rims.

[James_Douglas]

Adam, I have thought of that. It is also a PITA if you are on a cross country run with a flat. Although I do have AAA and they carry several jacks.

 

When I went over all my books again I found references to the 1946 to 1948 Long Wheelbase cars showing the following wheels all 5 holes on a 5-1/2 inch bolt pattern:

 

16 by 4.5 inch
15 by 5 Inch
15 by 5.5 Inch

15 by 6 Inch

 

These showed up in the 1946 to 1948 Desoto Mater Parts Book, the 1940 to 1954 MOPAR Master Parts Book, the Canadian 1949 Master Parts Book and the Hollander Interchange.

 

So, all the above wheel sizes were used on this one make and model or so the documentation shows.

 

Diamond Back makes a 16 inch tire in their new Auburn series that is a 600R16 that is 28.1 inches tall, tread width of 5 inches for the nice steering, section width of 6.4 which would help with the rear fender issues, uses a 4 to 6 inch rim and has a 1609 pound load capacity.

 

If I used that with a 16 by 4.5 inch steel wheel that is being made by ( https://www.wheelvintiques.com/all-wheels/gennie-bare-finish.html ) with a 2.75 inch back space then I would need a 0.85 inch spacer which is not too much. Between the spacer and the 16 inch wheel it should clear the caliper. It MAY fit without the spacer.

 

The center hole would have to be cut very carefully. I would take it to a machine shop with a lathe large enough to lathe cut the hole with the wheel rim perfectly centered.

 

James.

 

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, James_Douglas said:

Adam, I have thought of that. It is also a PITA if you are on a cross country run with a flat. Although I do have AAA and they carry several jacks.

 

When I went over all my books again I found references to the 1946 to 1948 Long Wheelbase cars showing the following wheels all 5 holes on a 5-1/2 inch bolt pattern:

 

 

 

The center hole would have to be cut very carefully. I would take it to a machine shop with a lathe large enough to lathe cut the hole with the wheel rim perfectly centered.

 

 

It would probably be faster if you looked for a shop with a CNC mill.  Cutting circles is a standard program.  Accurate location of the part on the table and centering the tool is all it takes to get the cut made.  I've had several wheels modified on one.  My grandson is a CNC machinist.

[James_Douglas]

The issue with a mill is you cannot check the wheel to hole indexing unless they have an indexed spinner table attachment on the mill. On a big ass lathe, they can put a dial indicator on it and move the jaws to get it dead centered much better. When the cut is made it would be very accurate and it would take up any mis-indexing when they welded the center to the hoop. It is all able to be done on a mill, but a mill would take a very thoughtful machinist or the spinner table which I have not see on a mill in a long time.

 

The other option is for it to be cut on the jet cutter, but again, getting it dead center is the issue.

 

I would do it, but my lathe is way too small.

 

James

Edited May 28, 2022 by James_Douglas

[kencombs]

11 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

The issue with a mill is you cannot check the wheel to hole indexing unless they have an indexed spinner table attachment on the mill. On a big ass lathe, they can put a dial indicator on it and move the jaws to get it dead centered much better. When the cut is made it would be very accurate and it would take up any mis-indexing when they welded the center to the hoop. It is all able to be done on a mill, but a mill would take a very thoughtful machinist or the spinner table which I have not see on a mill in a long time.

 

The other option is for it to be cut on the jet cutter, but again, getting it dead center is the issue.

 

I would do it, but my lathe is way too small.

 

James

I think that depends on the software running in the particular mill.  My grandson tells me that the one he ran when he did mine allowed him to position the wheel using the outer rim then locate the center from that data.  Notice I said 'think', but am reasonably sure that's correct.

[YukonJack]

Have you tried Detroit Steel Wheel? They make custom steel wheels.

 

[James_Douglas]

On 6/3/2022 at 11:46 AM, YukonJack said:

Have you tried Detroit Steel Wheel? They make custom steel wheels.

 

They do not make anything under 17 inch...

[James_Douglas]

Still in wheel hell. Not just normal hell, but the lower depths of hell...

 

All the suggestions in this thread as to shops that could or would make a wheel have come to nothing. Either they do not make 15 inch wheels or they are not interested in making them.

 

I have sent detailed information to "The Wheel Smith" and they could make a wheel, but they are sounding like they do not want to as they are worried about liability.

 

Because my wheel cracked, they are worried that it is a load issue. Fair enough. But I keep telling them it is a combination of the load and a very bad job on the part of Stockton Wheel in their implementation of it. Stockton Wheel left sharp edges on the wheel center flanges that could then "dig into" the wheel outer and cause the cracking.

 

I do think if they had rounded those 90 degree corners and also sanded the edges to "up sweep" a little and then pressed them in and welded it, it would be fine.

 

Over the last few months I have been reading a 100 page book.  It was written by the public school system Wichita, Kansas in the late 1940's. It was the book used to teach and test kids to take the Army Navy welding exam so they could work in the aircraft factories in Wichita. Welding a lot of chrome molly tubes in large clusters for aircraft small and large. It is all about stress and welding. It is all about preparation and exactly how to weld and in what direction relative to the metal grain. All about creating welds that do not crack.

 

If one reads over all the items on metal preparation and welding procedure, it is evident that the folks at Stockton Wheel blew it. However, trying to find anyone that will actually weld a new set and follow rigorously the same level of Q&A as could be achieved in 1940 is proving to be a fools errand.

 

I may have to abandon the disc brake set up and put drums back on just to be able to have wheels that will not fail.

 

James