Overdrive Lube debate

[Loren]

Okay so all the recommendations say GL-1 gear lube for Overdrive transmissions.

We know that.

However, based on my experiences GL-1 gear lube may be fine but it's pretty dated and it's thick or heavy.

Thick or heavy oils run hotter than thinner oils. I've read that and proven it to myself.

I have an Overdrive transmission all apart on my bench and I have not found anything inside that would have a problem with any good lube save the sprag clutch and perhaps the balk ring.

So where is my thinking going here?

My experience with manual transmissions with sprag clutches (freewheeling) dates to the 1956-80 SAAB 93,95,96 & 97 models.

The factory was all over the map on gear lubes. 90wt was the first spec, then it was discovered that it ran hot (or it was discovered 75wt ran cooler - pick one). Nobody had 75wt gear lube (it's like water thin) so the factory had to sell it and hated doing it. The last spec was 30wt engine oil which actually worked the best of all.

The SAAB had a freewheel lock out, which many owners used and simply forgot about freewheeling. By doing so for extend periods (years) crud would build up in the freewheel unit and when someone wanted to use it, it would slip. A fix I came up with was to drain the gear lube and refill with ATF. Almost immediately the freewheel worked perfectly. I'd have the customer drive the car normally for a week then drain it and refill with 30wt motor oil. An added benefit was that if an overhaul was needed, the inside would be razor clean.

I noted that Mercedes-Benz (at the time) used ATF in their manual transmissions.

Okay back to Overdrive.

The shop manual says NO Hypoid gear lube. I can understand that. The SAAB used an "on center" pinion gear so we never considered hypoid gear lube. For racing we used Redline Synthetic Transmission gear lube and we always used the freewheel. Never had any problems.

So what if you used ATF to clean the Overdrive and refilled with say 10-30wt Synthetic Motor Oil (such as Mobil 1) or Redline?

Would anyone's head explode if I did it?

[Sniper]

A well thought out and cogent post, my head would not explode.

 

However, my wallet would also not explode if you were wrong.  Ultimately, it is your money at risk.

[Young Ed]

I'd just be happy if I could get mine to stop leaking!! I've been running this in mine since last spring. 

 

 

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/traveller-ford-tractor-all-mineral-90-transmission-fluid-2-gal

 

[kencombs]

Well I think you're on to something.  Way back when, I had a little 65 Dart, slightly warmed up 273, A833.  Factory speced ATF as the trans lube.  My 56 pickup is getting a 230/A833OD combo and will get the same lube.

 

Now, Mopar did experience a noisy idle in neutral with some transmissions and recommended a heavier lube to stop that.  But, that made shifting more difficult on extremely cold starts.

 

Think of it like this, a vast majority of the transmissions that use ATF are planetary gearsets, just like the OD.  So, I don't see a risk.

[plyroadking]

After ~70k miles, probably about 7-8 years, of running a modern 75W-90 gear lube in mine I decided to pull it apart, clean it, and try the gl-1. (I had it apart several times when I first got it and I had cleaned it well) its also has the pre 1955 brass syncros. I couldn't find any signs of deterioration on the brass or on the thrust washers that are supposed to be susceptible to the modern lube. I slapped it all together and filled it with the gl-1, first trip out the door and it shifted terribly, I had to pause between the gears and shift very slowly or it'd grind while I shifted. I figured the lube was just cold but it didn't improve once it was hot. I gave it a couple weeks then drained and refilled it with the 75W-90. It shifted just like I was used to before I tried the gl-1. Its pushing 90k miles now and still shifts great. One person I sold an od trans to specified using the gl-1 for my after assembly test drive, it also shifted like a 100 year old truck transmission. If someone wants to try it, I've got a mostly full 5 gallon bucket of gl-1 that I keep tripping over in the shed. 

[Dartgame]

I visited George Asche a few years ago and he commented he uses a synthetic grade motor oil in his overdrives. Unfortunately I dont recall the weight oil he uses.

[keithb7]

I can't speak for all OD's as I have had limited exposure to the various versions of them. Some OD units share oil with the transmission. Don't we have to consider the synchro ramps with brass contacts and the oil they operate in? How they are to speed up and match adjoining gears. Yet I think about the M4 and M5 trannies. They suggested they run in SAE 10W oil if I recall. They have synchros. However, pin style synchros were present in my 53 M5 tranny. I don't believe they use ramps to match speeds on those synchros.

[kencombs]

3 hours ago, keithb7 said:

I can't speak for all OD's as I have had limited exposure to the various versions of them. Some OD units share oil with the transmission. Don't we have to consider the synchro ramps with brass contacts and the oil they operate in? How they are to speed up and match adjoining gears. Yet I think about the M4 and M5 trannies. They suggested they run in SAE 10W oil if I recall. They have synchros. However, pin style synchros were present in my 53 M5 tranny. I don't believe they use ramps to match speeds on those synchros.

AFAIK, all BW ODs use a separate lube reservoir.   Pin synchros have a similar ramp to the 'normal' ones, just sort of hidden from casual view.  As I mentioned earlier, the mid 60s Mopars with the 833 4 speed used ATF.  They were and are a great shifting trans with yellow metal synchro rings.  I don't know if the earlier ones had a different composition.

[Loren]

I have an Overdrive apart right now and another member is having issues with his. He believes it is a noise that is coming from the planetary gear set. Those small gears can fail and tear up the sun and ring gear. If you catch it before it fails you might save the other parts.

the main difference (in photos) between an R10 and an R11 is an extra planet gear. 3 vs 4.

so the thought was how about making 4 planet planetarys for the R10? Today I went to a friend with a machine shop who makes complicated parts like that. Other than a helical cut (matching the sun gear) he didn’t see much of a problem. The gears of course can be made. We are looking at whether an improved part might have a market.

 

on another matter.

 We have all noticed the outrageous prices for Overdrive relays and that has been given as a reason to not bother with installing an Overdrive properly. I found that the Bosch style” cube relays can be had in 6 volt and with a fuse plugged into the top! The relay comes with a 30 amp fuse which you should change to a 20. I’ve only found one supplier so far out of the UK but even so at $19 the price is very attractive. This type of relay has a huge verity of uses plus there are some heavy amperage relays available cheap too, all in 6 volt.

Next on my hit list are throttle switches. One joker has a mopar branded switch and it’s bracket listed for $265! What he doesn’t know is that the carburetor has to have the proper lever for it to work. I bought a new carburetor that had everything but the switch for less than half what that guy wants and then found a switch for a Studebaker for $30.

There’s no reason for price gouging.

[plyroadking]

I had a noisy overdrive once, turned out to be a combination of the parking brake drum nut was loose and excessively worn rear bearing, probably caused from the loose nut. It would allow the annulus to rub/grind on the case.

 

Studebaker switches will work part number 529479, also cole hersee made/makes them, part number 9106-02. You can order/buy a new kickdown switch for a '49 Mercury at most parts houses. They are about twice the size of the "correct" switch but if you're going to custom mount it somewhere non-factory they will work. 

 

We've been running 90's ford explorer fuel pump cube relays for years to operate our overdrives. 6v seems to energize the coil without any issues, but I still have a spare in the glove box. 

[Bob Riding]

Very Interesting topic. I sat up and took notice when it was mentioned that you should pull the OD handle out before putting in it reverse. I have a Asche-assembled BW OD mated to a stock 3pd tranny (also rebuilt by George) from a '40 Plymouth, that has performed flawlessly for over 5 years and over 3,000 miles, but I never took it out of OD to use reverse. It is not wired with the kickdown switch under the gas pedal, but a dash push-button kickdown. Have I been using it (or abusing it) all this time?

[plyroadking]

6 hours ago, Bob Riding said:

Very Interesting topic. I sat up and took notice when it was mentioned that you should pull the OD handle out before putting in it reverse. I have a Asche-assembled BW OD mated to a stock 3pd tranny (also rebuilt by George) from a '40 Plymouth, that has performed flawlessly for over 5 years and over 3,000 miles, but I never took it out of OD to use reverse. It is not wired with the kickdown switch under the gas pedal, but a dash push-button kickdown. Have I been using it (or abusing it) all this time?

Overdrive transmission cases and standard 3 speed transmission cases are different, you most likely have a transmission case that came with an overdrive. If you look in the area I've circled you should find the date stamp of your transmission. I presume the whole "don't back up with the cable pushed in" paranoia stems from the model A community that put r10 overdrive units in their torque tubes and have no other provisions to prevent damaging the unit while backing up. When used with the proper transmission case, there is a rod that disengages the overdrive when you shift the transmission into reverse gear. 

[rallyace]

Regarding relays on OD units, I have two 6 volt, 30 amp rated cube relays for mine. I found a seller on Ebay offering 4 for $20. Two years later and they are still working fine. I do not have a throttle kickdown switch but have added a dash mounted toggle switch that controls the low current control circuit for the OD. I use it judiciously and have never had any problems.

[Loren]

Wow!

Three posts in a row that taught me something!

 I agree about the Model A advice. If you don’t pull the cable all you have is neutral. I don’t believe you can harm the O.D. That’s why it’s best to maintain your handbrake, parking in gear won’t keep it from rolling.

Back in the 1960s my Dad had a business partner who favored Plymouths (not Howard Hughes unfortunately) and he had just washed his car and went inside to get ready for a date. When he came out the car was gone. About a block away he found it upside down in the middle of an intersection. Note to self always set the hand brake!

 

 I have a bunch of those cheap Chinese Bosch knock off relays, so I will try one. The thing I like about them is you can get sockets for them so in the dark you don’t have do wiring by the Braille method. The sockets come with 14 gauge pigtails so you have to change the load two to 10 gauge.

 I am going to find a source for the throttle switches, thanks for the information!

[Young Ed]

Personally I always pull the cable when parked. Only engage the overdrive when hitting the highway

[Bob Riding]

14 hours ago, plyroadking said:

Overdrive transmission cases and standard 3 speed transmission cases are different, you most likely have a transmission case that came with an overdrive. If you look in the area I've circled you should find the date stamp of your transmission. I presume the whole "don't back up with the cable pushed in" paranoia stems from the model A community that put r10 overdrive units in their torque tubes and have no other provisions to prevent damaging the unit while backing up. When used with the proper transmission case, there is a rod that disengages the overdrive when you shift the transmission into reverse gear. 

Excellent info, thanks...I will sleep better knowing I am not messing with the laws of the Universe (or Mother Mopar)!

[James_Douglas]

I am the one having OD problems. I think one of the planet gears is failing. Although almost every part in this transmission was replaced with NOS, the planet gear unit, the sun gear and the ring gear all were used.

 

I got about 60K miles on this unit before it started to fail. I suspected that it may fail at some point. Since the rest of the unit sold to me as rebuild had in fact (well documented) many parts that were worn beyond specification. I always suspected that given the crap parts sold to me that the OD parts that I could not replace may at some point fail.

 

So now I need to pull and open up a perfectly working transmission to deal with one or all three of these parts.

 

What I am considering doing is to rebuild a bad trans and spare OD unit I have. Then swap it the one in the car and then open up the existing unit and see what is up.

 

I did just score a NOS Sun Gear for the OD. If I could score a planet unit and a ring gear I would be happy. When I rebuilt this unit I paid Frank Mitchell like $400 for a NOS balking ring and gear. No doubt that is why this unit shifted so nice. Since that was the only NOS set I could find and it is SO IMPORTANT to the proper shifting of these units I am looking into seeing if they can be plated up to specification and perhaps a little more to make up for a worn ring. The Borg Warner books go into detail about how the ring MUST have a certain foot pound pull of resistance to shift properly.

 

I really like these overdrives here in San Francisco Traffic. Especially with the fluid coupling.  I just wish there was some NOS parts available.

[Adam H P15 D30]

@James_Douglas  I have a bucket full of R11 parts if you're interested.  They came out of a Ford but some may work?

[James_Douglas]

I would like to take a look at the sun, planet and ring gears to see if they can be made to work in an R10. I know that in some of the later 1960's transmissions that those versions of the planet assemblies had 3 or 4 gears and could be directly swapped. I just have no idea about the R10 and R11.

 

James

[Bob Riding]

On 12/13/2021 at 4:58 PM, plyroadking said:

Overdrive transmission cases and standard 3 speed transmission cases are different, you most likely have a transmission case that came with an overdrive. If you look in the area I've circled you should find the date stamp of your transmission. I presume the whole "don't back up with the cable pushed in" paranoia stems from the model A community that put r10 overdrive units in their torque tubes and have no other provisions to prevent damaging the unit while backing up. When used with the proper transmission case, there is a rod that disengages the overdrive when you shift the transmission into reverse gear. 

Easter Egg! I looked on the case where you outlined in red and found this: 

I never knew that George stamped his transmissions with his name!

[plyroadking]

I didn't realize he did either. A little further down should be the date stamp. Here's a picture of what one of them on the bench is stamped, 4-1-55

[James_Douglas]

Funny, The POS he sold me did not have his name stamped on it.  James