Edgy head throttle

[Pooshoe]

I have a edgy head and I was going to put it on but I was not sure what I should do about my throttle. I’m running the stock throttle. I tried looking for pics but I can’t find any any help?

[James_Douglas]

The two things I complained to Earl about was a lack of the threaded hole for the throttle stud and no heater valve boss. I think his heads would have had a wider appeal if they were "swap and play".

 

I saw one where someone milled the ribs off across the head and made a steel plate that went under the head bolts that had a stud welded to it for the throttle bell crank.

 

James

[Loren]

The front running candidate for when I get around to using my Edgy head is a tube with bushings in each end and a shaft to transmit the motion to the other side. The tube would be mounted to the head studs with tabs welded to the side and go over the top of the fins.

I am using two barrel carburetors so the throttle shafts are perpendicular to the head as opposed to parallel as stock singles would be.

Initially I am going to use a milled stock head until I work out other kinks.

[Frank Elder]

Unless a person just has to have " pretty " under the hood I see absolutely no advantage over a milled iron head that has been port matched and cleaned up. Aluminum heads introduce dissimilar metals corrosion, easy to strip spark plug threads, and easier to warp than a cast iron head.

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Frank Elder said:

Unless a person just has to have " pretty " under the hood I see absolutely no advantage over a milled iron head that has been port matched and cleaned up. Aluminum heads introduce dissimilar metals corrosion, easy to strip spark plug threads, and easier to warp than a cast iron head.

Edgy head has a much better combustion chamber.

[martybose]

Loren, sounds like you might be using either Carter-Webers (what I had) or "normal"  IDG Webers.  You should be aware that not only are the throttle levers at right angles compared to the stock one barrels,but they need to be pushed open instead of pulled open.  Be sure to check which way they need to work.  In my application I had to make an intermediate shaft that mounted to my Edmunds manifold to reverse the direction of the linkage to the carbs.  I found an old photo that shows it clearly; the rod from the stock bellcrank goes to the arm on the bottom, and two arms on the top of the shaft open the carbs.  This only worked for me because the Edmunds manifold is tall, it wouldn't fit if it was an Offy.

 

Marty

 

[Loren]

Well yes and no.

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Edgy head has a much better combustion chamber.

 

The 25 inch head I got (which was the last one they sold) is pretty much the same.

The 23 inch head has a Navarro inspired chamber design with the step over the exhaust valve.

Otherwise I agree with Frank.

I think if you're going for reliability an iron head can't be beat.

The 25 inch Edgy head I have may sit on the shelf for a while.

When you look inside the water passage there are all sorts of "divots" and craters which worry me. The sides where the pipe threads are for the temp gauge and the heater outlet are scary thin.

[Loren]

6 minutes ago, martybose said:

Loren, sounds like you might be using either Carter-Webers (what I had) or "normal"  IDG Webers.  You should be aware that not only are the throttle levers at right angles compared to the stock one barrels,but they need to be pushed open instead of pulled open.  Be sure to check which way they need to work.  In my application I had to make an intermediate shaft that mounted to my Edmunds manifold to reverse the direction of the linkage to the carbs.  I found an old photo that shows it clearly; the rod from the stock bellcrank goes to the arm on the bottom, and two arms on the top of the shaft open the carbs.  This only worked for me because the Edmunds manifold is tall, it wouldn't fit if it was an Offy.

 

Marty

 

 

Actually I am using Bendix-Stromberg Model WW carburetors, on a 25 inch Chrysler Industrial (IND 33, 265 cid) engine. They are much shorter than a 97 but use many of the pieces (like jets) and flow more. They are also "period correct" and many MoPars came with them. The 1954 Plymouth "Power Pack" 230 had one. The main reason I am using them is that I had a lot of experience with them and find them forgiving and easy to tune. Besides I found the correct bracket for my Overdrive kick down switch in the box of one I bought on eBay. lol

Here's a photo of a mock up.

 

 

 

71F46950-A6FA-43DA-87CD-CC9EC07346FA.heic

[Pooshoe]

4 hours ago, martybose said:

Loren, sounds like you might be using either Carter-Webers (what I had) or "normal"  IDG Webers.  You should be aware that not only are the throttle levers at right angles compared to the stock one barrels,but they need to be pushed open instead of pulled open.  Be sure to check which way they need to work.  In my application I had to make an intermediate shaft that mounted to my Edmunds manifold to reverse the direction of the linkage to the carbs.  I found an old photo that shows it clearly; the rod from the stock bellcrank goes to the arm on the bottom, and two arms on the top of the shaft open the carbs.  This only worked for me because the Edmunds manifold is tall, it wouldn't fit if it was an Offy.

 

Marty

 

 How did you mount piece I circled in red?

[49D-24BusCpe]

    Here's how I did the linkage on my 274" DeVal (Chrysler Industrial 265" IND-32 clone). It has three Carter-Webers on an A-O-K intake.

 

 

  

[Loren]

274 cid! I want one!

How did they get that much?

I can't imagine more stroke a 265 has a 4 3/4 inch stroke already and they had to notch the block and work the rods over.

[Pooshoe]

274 deval? 

[49D-24BusCpe]

Hi Loren & Pooshoe,

 

    Loren, you too, can easily have a 274" engine. My engine now has a 3.50" bore, a 1/16" over STD.! Incidentally, I never, ever considered stroking the engine - as it already has a high enough 'piston speed'. I might add, that there were several reasons for choosing that particular bore size.

 

    Pooshoe, my DeVal is a (relatively unknown variant and last produced) version of the Chrysler Corp. 25" L-head 6-Cylinder Engine family. Use this site's SEARCH function to find out more about the DeVal; "DeVal 265 Replaces 230!".

 

    I've been running this engine and drivetrain package for about fifteen months now, with great success. It has excellent drivability, it's 'peppy', and it's fun to drive! This spring, we'll be adding a couple more "tweeks".

 

All the best,

Walt

[martybose]

14 hours ago, Pooshoe said:

 How did you mount piece I circled in red?

I just took the stock stud out of my iron head and screwed it into the provided location on my Edmunds head.

 

Marty

[Pooshoe]

My Plymouth it screws in to the block. What year is your car? Maybe I can fine the linkage and use it on mine? 

[grubby65]

This is how I did my linkage on the '37 DeSoto, with and S-15 (251) motor, Nicson intake, and Carter carbs

[greg g]

Guess you are supposed to rig up some sort of cable style doohickie and run a remote mount oil filter, fabricate a coil mount, wire loom and mounting points, engineer your heater feed and cobble a temp sending unit along the way. And then figure out what spark plugs you should use and what their reach should be.

[MoparMontana]

Hi there, I seldom look at forums, but it's been raining non-stop for three days, so am doing a bit of couch and internet surfing. I am the guy that is currently casting "EDGY" heads.

 

First off, if you ever have a question or problem with one of the heads that I have sold you, do not hesitate to email me at moparmontana@gmail.com before talking negatively about my products forums (which is exactly why I don't participate in forums).

 

I have noticed a couple of comments on here about folks having issues with "EDGY" heads. First off, please understand that there are two versions of EDGY heads; The ones that Earl sold prior to 2017, and the ones that I started producing in January of 2018. While the two 23" heads (Earl's Gen I and my Gen II) are visually identical, that is where all comparisons end. While I wasn't aware of it at the time, there were some issues with Earl's original (lets call them Gen I) heads when I bought the pattern from him. I literally had not cast a single head yet when I got a call from one of Earl's customers saying that he had a porosity issue with his head. About a week later, I received another, this time with an overheating issue. I asked both of those customers to send me their heads so I could evaluate them, with the promise that I would send them a new head for free when I got mine (Lets call them Gen II) produced (BTW, both of these gents are now repeat customers). I spent a day at the foundry sawing up these two EDGYs and two stock heads. From what we learned, I then made a lot of changes to Earl's pattern, thus the "Gen II" designation.

 

These improvements included, but not limited to - A different foundry, pure Ingot 357 Aluminum, T-6 heat treating, increased internal webbing, increased internal radii, improved water flow with less stagnation, modifications to eliminate core shift, shot peening to remove stress, CNC machining, final surface finishing. I use the same foundry that produces Arias hemi race blocks and heads, components for Shelby Enterprises, and some of the higher-end products for Offenhauser. In hind sight, it would have been easier to simply make a new pattern, but I had already purchased Earl's patterns, spent the money to revise it, and thought it easier to utilize his brand recognition instead of starting from scratch.

 

In regards to 25" EDGY heads, I only produced a few. These were cast with Earl's pattern, but with no changes or updates. Again, if you have an issue with one of the units that I produced, please email me at moparmontana@gmail.com and I will make it right.

 

Moving forward- Now that I have been working with the new foundry, a 3D pattern maker, a porting and flow expert, and continuing to set records at Bonneville, and have some recognition, I feel like we can new create all-new heads that not only have improved performance over the original EDGY design, but are also less tricky to cast and machine (keeping costs down) as well as eliminate some of the complaints that I hear regarding the original EDGY design; like the heater and temperature sender location, lack of bosses for oil filter and throttle linkage, and an option to use a stock thermostat housing.

 

So, I am in the process of designing a few completely new head patterns (sixes and an eight) with a new combustion chamber design for the 23" (218/230 Dodge/Plymouth), 25" (251/265 Chrysler/DeSoto) and Chrysler 323" eight (if there is sufficient demand).  While they are most likely still a year out, the next step is happening very soon. We (The Montana Dodge Boys) are in the process of cutting up various junk blocks and heads, and have enlisted the services of an old friend who was the cylinder head and porting guru for Alan Johnson racing for a decade. He is the guy that helped take our little 212" 1928 Dodge four cylinder Bonneville race motor from it's stock 37 horsepower to the fire-breathing 240 HP that achieved our goal of a 150.141 MPH record in 2017 (https://youtu.be/fKskvABKme0). I have also been corresponding with Tim Kingsbury, George Asche, and Bruce Mosier for some "old-school" perspective and advice.

 

Both of the new heads will be available in two forms; a finned "hot rod" head and a stock-appearing "sleeper" head, yet both will have the benefits of high compression, better heat dissipation, improved combustion chamber design, and extra material on the gasket surface to allow for enough milling for extreme compression ratios (up to 11:1). There are also a flow-bench designed intake and headers in the works, a Borg Warner R10 overdrive adapter, porting templates, as well and some modernized, computer-designed cam grinds.

 

Stay tuned to my website www.moparmontana.com or facebook page @moparvintagespeed for updates.

 

Again, if you have an issue with a product or service that you received from me, feel free to reach out to me directly.

 

Thank you,

 

Pete

 

 

 

[MoparMontana]

On 12/27/2020 at 10:37 AM, Frank Elder said:

Unless a person just has to have " pretty " under the hood I see absolutely no advantage over a milled iron head that has been port matched and cleaned up. Aluminum heads introduce dissimilar metals corrosion, easy to strip spark plug threads, and easier to warp than a cast iron head.

Combustion chamber design theory, and gasoline formulation has improved drastically in the past 70 years. And, like every part on a car, every stock part was a compromise between the engineers, the bean counters, and the warranty department. There is literally no direct comparison in performance between a milled stock head and a well-engineered aftermarket performance piece. I will be posting flow bench and dyno data that supports that in late spring/early summer.

[Sniper]

I have one of the Gen II Edgy heads, haven't run it yet as I am planning to put it on the 230 I am building.  But most of the issues that some think the Edgy head has are nit picky, imo.  Millions of heads out there are aluminum and most (Ford aside) don't have an issue with spark plugs stripping out.  It's fairly simple to fab a mount if you want to keep the original rod type throttle setup.  Personally, if you are going to tun a performance head you ought to run a performance oil filtration setup and the stock bypass setup isn't it.  That mod has been covered well on this site.  The stock wire loom fails, ever hear of inducted spark crossover?  Coill mount is not an issue either, simple to fab one up.

 

This is NOT a stock replacement head, the junkyards have those.  It is a performance head and there are some issues that need addressed by the installer, just like any other performance head out there. 

[MoparMontana]

10 minutes ago, Sniper said:

I have one of the Gen II Edgy heads, haven't run it yet as I am planning to put it on the 230 I am building.  But most of the issues that some think the Edgy head has are nit picky, imo.  Millions of heads out there are aluminum and most (Ford aside) don't have an issue with spark plugs stripping out.  It's fairly simple to fab a mount if you want to keep the original rod type throttle setup.  Personally, if you are going to tun a performance head you ought to run a performance oil filtration setup and the stock bypass setup isn't it.  That mod has been covered well on this site.  The stock wire loom fails, ever hear of inducted spark crossover?  Coill mount is not an issue either, simple to fab one up.

 

This is NOT a stock replacement head, the junkyards have those.  It is a performance head and there are some issues that need addressed by the installer, just like any other performance head out there. 

Thank you! I appreciate your input and support. I agree 100% that folks need to understand that my Gen II EDGY heads are "hot rod" pieces, and with that comes the assumption that they will require a very high level of skill to make the appropriate modifications to work on their application.

But, the reality is that a lot of folks do not have the experience or tooling to do so. I am fully aware that I am lucky to have been wrenching on vintage cars for forty-plus years, can weld cast iron, steel, and aluminum, have enough tools for several shops, and can run a lathe and a mill. But, I also remember when all of these things were intimidating as $#^&!. I do fabrications daily that would have crippled me only a few years ago. That gets back to my comment simply asking for those who don't have the experience and tooling to reach out for solutions instead of complaining about the part itself.

[MoparMontana]

On 12/27/2020 at 10:37 AM, Frank Elder said:

Unless a person just has to have " pretty " under the hood I see absolutely no advantage over a milled iron head that has been port matched and cleaned up. Aluminum heads introduce dissimilar metals corrosion, easy to strip spark plug threads, and easier to warp than a cast iron head.

 

[Andydodge]

Pete............great to have your input here.........I obtained one of Edgy's 23" heads in 2008 and intended to run it on the 230 I was collecting bits for...unfortunately things changed and the engine and 41 Plymouth ended up being sold in 2013 but I still have my hotrodded 1940 Dodge, going on 50yrs this coming September............am pleased to hear that you are keeping the flathead mopars flame alight, best wishes & regards from Oztralia..........AndyDouglas  

[Dartgame]

Pete - all things being equal what sort of power increase would one expect by changing the stock head for one of your aluminum heads ?

 

 

Just in case. Maybe its not that simple to compare, but lets say you have a 2 carb intake and a split exhaust manifold, with a mild perf cam on a US 230?

[James_Douglas]

Pete,

 

I always shudder when people extol the virtues of a part due to its use in racing. I would watch that. The truth is that 75K miles driven on the road is much harder on a part that an hour of running on the track. One does not take apart, every six months, a street engine...

 

I would talk about is the fact that heads that have not been shaved a half dozen times are starting to get hard to get. Even when you find one that looks like it has not been shaved too many times you end up with some that have the water ports to the block are so corroded that a good block to head seal over time is hard to get.

 

Having a head with a lot of meat left on it so that a block can be properly decked and if need be at an angle to get the deck parallel to the line bore I would think would be a stronger selling point. 

 

As an aside...I saw a Hudson inline engine in the early 1970's that apart at my machine shop. It was from I was told an old Trans American Racer. It had a custom aluminum head. What was interesting was that the block had been drilled at the water jack holes on both the block and the head. Little brass sleeves were sitting in there to "bridge" the holes. I asked about that. I was told it was to keep the electrolysis at the seal points down as they did not want to lug anti-freeze out on the course. They wanted to just use water...

 

As I flash ahead to today, I cannot run an aluminum head as I do not use anti-freeze in my cars here in the middle of San Francisco. I know a LOT of cars guys and gals in this town across California who also do not. Why? because if we drained an engine and it was observed the fines would not be trivial. I have thought back to that old engine and wondered about ways to run an aluminum head without antifreeze...

 

If I go to Like Tahoe I just dump in some alcohol in the radiator.

 

I know there are some water soluble and ok to dump in the environment anti-corrosion additives out there...but I have never used them. It would not be a bad idea for you to run that issue down as well...

 

Now, if we could just get Tony to own and run a machine shop....

 

James.