Overdrive engagement issue

[woodie49]

I put a '53 OD unit into my '49 Woodie several years ago.  It had always worked great.  Just recently, it will not shift into OD after I have been driving for 15 or 20 minutes.  When things are cold, or not completely warmed up, the unit shifts into OD as it should.  After a while of driving at freeway speeds, when the unit drops out of OD because i stop or slow down it will not shift back into OD at any speed, whether in second or third.

I am suspecting this is an issue with the governor.  I think I can  override the governor by wiring in a manual switch to the appropriate terminal and to ground, that I can trip from in the car. When the unit stops functioning, I will try overriding the governor (at correct speed) using the switch. That should help me confirm or rule out the governor.  Am I likely to mess up the internal workings of the governor by doing this?

[plyroadking]

I installed a switch just like you're talking about so I can override the governor. I highly recommend taking your switched ground wire to the governor terminal on the lockout switch thats on the overdrive transmission. That switch is made when the cable is fully engaged. That way you won't have to worry about that switch inadvertently getting bumped and causing issues. 

[greg g]

Check all the connections for the system from the relay through to the governor.  The governor does control the ground which complete the engagement, drop circuits.  Could also be that the points in the governor are looking for attention.  Assuming its still 6v, the circuits are sensitive to resistance caused by loose or corroded connections. The relay to solinoid connects are important also.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Serviceable Points are located in solenoid, governor and relay...

You might want to clean the contacts in the relay too...also check the relay fuse for good contact.

The factory set up works very well if maintained.

[Loren]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:22 PM, woodie49 said:

I put a '53 OD unit into my '49 Woodie several years ago.  It had always worked great.  Just recently, it will not shift into OD after I have been driving for 15 or 20 minutes.  When things are cold, or not completely warmed up, the unit shifts into OD as it should.  After a while of driving at freeway speeds, when the unit drops out of OD because i stop or slow down it will not shift back into OD at any speed, whether in second or third.

I am suspecting this is an issue with the governor.  I think I can  override the governor by wiring in a manual switch to the appropriate terminal and to ground, that I can trip from in the car. When the unit stops functioning, I will try overriding the governor (at correct speed) using the switch. That should help me confirm or rule out the governor.  Am I likely to mess up the internal workings of the governor by doing this?

 

Woodie, send me a PM and I'll email you a PDF copy of a service manual for the Overdrive. That will put you on the right track.

[greg g]

There is one under the resource tab in the downloads section.

[Go Fleiter]

My overdrive is very reliable! Whenever not, it was an electric circuit failure.

I too recommend to temporarily bridge the suspicious switches: governor, shiftrail switch, kickdown sw and even the solenoid.

I found my provisorially installed control LED- lights to be so useful to understand the heartbeat of the OD,

that I still didn´t get them out.

  I omitted the kick- down system as it seems far too rough for me, and have one main OD- switch.

Pete from Nebraska put a small pushbutton in his turn signal lever for Kick-down, seemed very clever to me!

 

(the digital temp- gauge is hidden with a little door, other  are 6V gauge, rpm gauge, 12V gauge (additional, independent 12v system))

Greetings from Düsseldorf!

Go

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Go Fleiter

[greg g]

Within the OD solenoid there are two sets of points controlling two magnetic switches. One is a high amp (10 to12 amps) pull in circuit which engages the OD via the ground provided by the governor. When engaged the mechanical movement inside the solenoid trips the lower amp (6 to 8 amps) hold in circuit, again grounded through the governor.  This releases the pull in to lessen amp load while keeping the OD engaged.

 

Four conditions will release the hold in and shift the OD out,

the kick down switch,

slowing below the governor's preset speed, 

if wired with a manual on off (a kick down bypass) switch turning the relay off

and pulling the control cable, which inturupts the ground

 

all depend on good clean electrical connections, most of which are external and easily addressed.

[Loren]

I've always maintained that a properly installed, properly functioning Overdrive is almost "invisible."

In other words it works automatically and you don't even think about it.

It is a mistake to deviate from the originally designed circuitry because it puts unacceptable strain (read torque impacts) on the entire driveline.

To put it another way, if you don't hook it up right you are going to break it. (this is another "don't ask me how I know" situation)

 

The Overdrive relay must be hooked to the ignition coil to interrupt the ignition to take the torque off the driveline. The best part is that you'll never feel it. The throttle switch can be set to your desired kick down throttle position and you can "drive to it". Which means if you see the top of the hill coming you can hold off the kick down by easing off the throttle. The governor speed is also adjustable (if you don't like the factory setting).

I am mean what's not to like about it?

Get the service manual and make certain your Overdrive systems are working properly, then experiment if you must. I think you'll leave it alone once you get it working as designed. 

[T120]

3 hours ago, Loren said:

 

....Get the service manual and make certain your Overdrive systems are working properly, then experiment if you must. I think you'll leave it alone once you get it working as designed. 

Good advice. ?

[9 foot box]

   One of the places that I found concerning an R-10 overdrive, says to only use GL-1 fluid. Synthetic fluid is too slippery and will prevent the sun gear from engaging. That could explain why woodie49s’ works cold, till it warms up. 

[Go Fleiter]

I like to have the OD under my own control, not under the car´s, as I dislike (older) automatic transmissions.

And I don´t like to use the shift rail handle. That is why I have the master OD switch

It´s "Off" is mandatory, it´s  "On" does not engage directly. That depends from

governor and rail swiches as disigned.

 

Anyhow, everybody may have his own preference of things!

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Go Fleiter

[Loren]

Yes, its true folks will have their own preferences and they are entitled to them.

Some preferences come with a cost and we have to accept that.

When the Overdrive breaks (not if) be sure to remember that you exercised your preference over the engineers who designed the thing.

 

Not all Overdrives are designed to operate automatically like the Borg Warner R10. The English Laycock de Normanville is not automatic has no governor or  throttle kick down switch which means you can shift into overdrive in any gear (except reverse) with an operator's switch. You'd be well advised to use the clutch however because full throttle up shifts are done with a bang (which makes one appreciate the automatic R10)

A 3 speed transmission with overdrive was considered a fast cheap way to offer a 4 speed transmission but B-W spiced it up a little by making it automatic.

The next generation of transmissions that were actual 4 speeds were mainly 1 to 1 in high gear and used a lower numerical rear axle to get the slower engine speed on the highway. The Laycocks were used mainly with 4 speeds as a way to get 5 speeds on the cheap.

Of course you could always swap out the 3 speed w/overdrive for a T5 which would give you total control overdrive and a synchromesh first gear.

 

My preference is to make driving easy with driver aids. At one time a rear view mirror and a seat belt were considered driver aids for race cars. Automatic transmissions, power steering and brakes sure make a difference in driver performance in an endurance race. My daily driver was one of the first with what has become known as "Adaptive Cruise Control". It senses the speed of the car ahead and will come to a full stop if the traffic stops. On my car because it will function at 25 mph I use it constantly even in town. I drive with a very high degree of concentration and when I can "delegate" work to the machinery I do. I find that increases safety because your attention is less divided among the many tasks involved in driving. I don't talk or text on the phone (even with a hands free phone connection) I find that too much of a distraction. When driving there is no such thing as multi tasking. Cars operate in a very predictable manner, you have to trust them. 

[kencombs]

Loren has a point, but it is possible to add manual control without creating a potential problem.  Just be sure the final configuration includes the ignition kill feature when shifting.  That is included in the kickdown feature and that is what protects the OD hardware.

 

I also prefer the manual switch for one reason, I've owned a lot of pickups with OD and when loaded or towing, downshifting in advance of need is much preferable to a kickdown when on a grade loosing speed.

 

It is possible to retain the auto shifting feature and have a manual kickdown.     And, what most ignore is the ability to downshift into low while rolling since the OD doesn't drive the mainshaft when coasting below cut-in speed.

 

I've driven many ODs and never broke one.  Low/reverse sliders and clusters yes, but that is another story.

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[James_Douglas]

I agree with Loren. I tried using the extra switch wiring that George sent out with the unit (which was defective, see old threads) and I ended up tossing it. I have the stock set up, abet I do not use the switch on the car but on the linkage (see old threads).

 

This IS my daily driver here in San Francisco and throughout the Bay Area. If I need it to "downshift on demand" I just floor it and then can hold it off with my foot and it will not shift. Given the car sees 4500 pounds all the time and big hills...it has not been an issue.

 

To each their own, but I like having it in a stock set up so that if and when there is an issue, I can use the BW literature to quickly trouble shoot any issue without having to figure in my own changes. I have enough of that kind of fun on this car already!

 

One thing I would warn people about is that balking ring. DO NOT take for-grated the flaky behavior that thing can introduce when it is worn. It works by the friction of the ring moving on the gear and when it wears that changes. It has zero adjustment. I spent months running down a dozen things, with George telling me the while time I screwed up the wiring...it turned out that he sold me a unit with that part so far out of spec it would never work correctly.

 

So, if that part is worn too much, you can spend a lot of time chasing ghosts.

 

James