1950 Wayfarer putting in a 218 from Plymouth questions

[duly]

Found a good running 218 Plymouth and I plan on putting it in my 1950 Dodge Wayfarer and replace the 230. The Plymouth is a P25 = 1954 218 Plymouth car. 

1. Is there anything major that will keep this from happening? Any tips to make it an easy transplant?

2. I noticed my Dodge 230 has a slightly different front motor mount, so I was just going to use the 230 mount on the 218. 

3. The 218 has a different bellhousing and the brake master cylinder is on the bellhousing as opposed to under the floor on the Dodge, so I will keep the Dodge set up unless somebody says different. 

4. I have what looks like a 3 speed Hy Drive and bellhousing and was told it is from a Plymouth Plaza. Is it possible to simply put the hydrive bellhousing on the Plymouth 218 and install in the Dodge? I assume I need to cut the floor for the gear shift? By the way the Dodge was fluid drive shifter on the column. Fluid drive is missing. 

 

Thank you very much for the help. This seems relatively easy, but if I am about to open a can of worms then say so. I will not make this a hack job just looking for suggestions. All the pictures are the Plymouth motor. 

[Mark D]

Getting ready to do the near same transplant. Motor from a ‘53 Plymouth belvedère into a ‘53 Dodge Coronet. Never done it before, likely a few challenges ahead of me. Gonna be following this thread with interest.
 

...One mountain at a time as they say.

[9 foot box]

   Duly, I think the bell housing on the P25 is for a B series Dodge truck with a 3 speed column shift. The front engine mount is truck also. What part of the fluid drive is missing? The bell housing and clutch assembly or the transmission. 

[Young Ed]

The biggest things you guys will possibly find is crankshaft flange not having enough holes for the fluid drive and flywheel spacing going from 218 to 230

[greg g]

If the dodge is fluid drive, the Plymouth crank flange is not designed to support the mass of the fluid drive assembly some flanges for fluid drive carswere thicker than Plymouth stuff also. Also as noted the bellhousing and rear mounts and pedal supports are from a truck.  Also the truck trans may be a non synchro box.  Not sure maybe the pilothouse guys will jump in.  Other considerations with mix and match is location of car bellhousing cross member and transmission input shaft length.  Lay the stuff you are going to use and make some measurements of what is currently in there.  

 

Some good news is the rotating assemblies from the 230, crank, rods and associated pieces will fit into the 218 block and will render it a 230.

[Mark D]

The Plymouth motor I’m getting comes with a trans. I think I’m gonna transfer it all into the dodge. However when I have it at my place this weekend I’ll do a side by side to see what I’m up against. Only thing I can think of as an obstacle is the clutch linkage.

[duly]

11 hours ago, 9 foot box said:

   Duly, I think the bell housing on the P25 is for a B series Dodge truck with a 3 speed column shift. The front engine mount is truck also. What part of the fluid drive is missing? The bell housing and clutch assembly or the transmission. 

The bell housing is still attached to the Dodge 230, all that is missing is the fluid drive. I will need to jack it up to check on the clutch, both front tires are flat. Pictures 230 in the Dodge and hydrive in the bed. 

[duly]

9 hours ago, Young Ed said:

The biggest things you guys will possibly find is crankshaft flange not having enough holes for the fluid drive and flywheel spacing going from 218 to 230

I don't plan on using a fluid drive with the 218, I plan on using the hydrive out of a Plymouth. 

[duly]

9 hours ago, greg g said:

If the dodge is fluid drive, the Plymouth crank flange is not designed to support the mass of the fluid drive assembly some flanges for fluid drive carswere thicker than Plymouth stuff also. Also as noted the bellhousing and rear mounts and pedal supports are from a truck.  Also the truck trans may be a non synchro box.  Not sure maybe the pilothouse guys will jump in.  Other considerations with mix and match is location of car bellhousing cross member and transmission input shaft length.  Lay the stuff you are going to use and make some measurements of what is currently in there.  

 

Some good news is the rotating assemblies from the 230, crank, rods and associated pieces will fit into the 218 block and will render it a 230.

I plan on doing what Mark is doing; mating the hydrive from a Plymouth car to the 218 from a Plymouth and installing in a Dodge Wayfarer. I don't have a fluid drive to attach to anything. I like the lay out everything idea, will do that for sure. 

[Young Ed]

Did the plymouth engine come with the hydrive? If so you're good. If not you still might have issues. You also need to supply engine oil to the hydrive

[Adam H P15 D30]

1 hour ago, duly said:

The bell housing is still attached to the Dodge 230, all that is missing is the fluid drive. I will need to jack it up to check on the clutch, both front tires are flat. Pictures 230 in the Dodge and hydrive in the bed. 

 

If the top picture is what you have in the car, the fluid drive coupling is there.  The transmission in the bed is a standard 3 speed, not hydrive.  The bell housing looks to be for a standard clutch so it is safe to assume the 3 speed trans next to it has the short input shaft and can't be used with the fluid drive coupling in the top picture.  Also, my Wayfarer uses the "stubby" transmission (shorter than yours shown) so you my need to shorten your driveshaft.  If you move the 3 speed and standard clutch to a FD engine, some machining may be necessary to make the starter engage the flywheel ring gear correctly because of the above mentioned thicker crank flange.  The late Don Coatney did a write up on this with pictures.  Hope this helps....

Edited December 1, 2020 by Adam H P15 D30

[duly]

1 hour ago, Young Ed said:

Did the plymouth engine come with the hydrive? If so you're good. If not you still might have issues. You also need to supply engine oil to the hydrive

Yes sir the plymouth came with the 3 speed, not a hydrive (still learning) I was hoping this would work out, just needed some guidance. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by duly

[greg g]

The hydrve shares engine oil with the transmission.  There is an oil supply which usually means the engine and transmission must be a pair set up for the hydrve driveline.  It may be as simple at removing a plug but I have no actual experience.  Go to the AlPar website and search transmissions.  There if a pretty complete write up there.

[dpollo]

You are in a world of hurt.  You have probably come up with the most difficult swap there is .    If you are lucky, the P25 block will be a 230 and has 8 holes in the crankshaft.  Otherwise the fluid drive will not fit.  If you are going to use a Hydrive, then the block must have the necessary passageway for return oil to the pan, and machine work to seal the end of the oil gallery to the Hydrive adapter.  You cannot use the truck bell housing pictured without ruining the car.  A Plymouth bell housing will work if you cut and move the crossmember and change ALL the linkages and lengthen your driveshaft.

 

Re read the posts above, Greg, Young Ed and Duly seem to have been there.    ( years ago I had a Hydrive car which needed a new block  , I could not find one and wound up.... shame on me... installing a 283 Chev.)  

 

 

[Dodgeb4ya]

I am so lost....

Fluid Drive, Torque Converter Hy-Drive, engine oil fed, eight bolt crank, bell housing oil passage plate adapter, 

3 speed or FD 3 speed, long trans, shorty trans.....

A simple engine trans swap...naw?

 

 

 

[duly]

Ok I will try again and be more clear. I am removing the Dodge 230 and there is no fluid drive anywhere in this equation. I am wanting to install a 218 from a Plymouth truck along with a 3 speed, not Hydrive, from a Plymouth Plaza onto the 218, ALSO I have the bellhousing that came off the Plaza. All this will go into a Dodge Wayfarer. I would ASSUME Plymouth trucks used the same 3 speed? so the transmission should have no problem fitting on this motor.  So Plymouth 218 with Plymouth 3 speed and 3 speed bellhousing going into Dodge Wayfarer. Pictures are of the 3 speed, bellhousing and cover. 

 

Seriously I appreciate the help and if this doesn't workout I sure as **** learned something. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by duly

[Mark D]

Duly, i understood your first post. Crazy how these threads go off on tangeants.

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

odds are you are the only person with the said exact pieces to mix and match....so technically you are the one to make the measurements and verification of co-mingling.  Techinically I am thinking the main issue will be the depth of the flywheel mounting on the crank as your starter engagement  could be an issue here.  Now is that across the board with 230 flywheels or just the FD...I have no answer either....but you should be able to compare one flywheel to the other.....usually it is the flywheel stays with the crank when doing this blending of parts.

[Adam H P15 D30]

1 hour ago, duly said:

Ok I will try again and be more clear. I am removing the Dodge 230 and there is no fluid drive anywhere in this equation. I am wanting to install a 218 from a Plymouth truck along with a 3 speed, not Hydrive, from a Plymouth Plaza onto the 218, ALSO I have the bellhousing that came off the Plaza. All this will go into a Dodge Wayfarer. I would ASSUME Plymouth trucks used the same 3 speed? so the transmission should have no problem fitting on this motor.  So Plymouth 218 with Plymouth 3 speed and 3 speed bellhousing going into Dodge Wayfarer. Pictures are of the 3 speed, bellhousing and cover. 

 

Seriously I appreciate the help and if this doesn't workout I sure as **** learned something. 

Crystal Clear

you will have to relocate the crossmember for the bell housing / rear engine mounts forward. 
you will have to shorten your shift rods and clutch rod.  
you might have to shorten your driveshaft with the longer transmission. 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Adam H P15 D30

[Dartgame]

If I understand your set of parts correctly, as long as you match 218 parts together it should work. The difference between 218 and 230's as I understand it is that the crank flange for the flywheel is offset differently for the two engines. Why I do not know. So if you intend to drop the 218 in place of the 230 and keep the 3spd manual trans you will need a 218 car flywheel or a flywheel of the same diameter and tooth count (218 flywheel truck or car) as the 230 you are replacing. Use the 230 bell housing from the dodge (no change) and bolt the three speed to it. If this involves a trans change to a fluid drive vs manual I cant help you decide what to do.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Dartgame

[maddmaxx1949]

I want to add to this as well. and I'll try and break it down so it makes sense.  I just swapped a dodge B-1b 218 into my '49 coronet as of last night. 

 

The Coronet had the following:

 - 230 motor - fluid drive coupling (as opposed to standard flywheel) - standard 3 speed transmission with long input shaft. 

- Bellhousing specific to fluid drive which mounts on the crossmember and had more space to house fluid drive coupling. 

- I do believe the truck motor had the 8 bolt crank but I will double check today.

- PLEASE CHECK to make sure your oil pan orientation is the correct way! (will explain below)**

 

The truck 218 had the following:

- 218 motor - standard flywheel - 4 speed manual transmission with pto (donor trans that I had lying around to test)

- Bellhousing and mounts matched yours in the picture of the Pymouth motor. They will not accomodate the fluid drive coupling and the mounts will not work as the fluid drive bellhousing is mounted on the crossmember and not bolted to the side of the frame.

 

**Oil pan orientation: Dodge cars for that era had a rear oil sump with the thick part of the pan on the rear side of the engine whereas some of the 218 dodge trucks had a forward sump and the thick part of the oil pan up front. The orientation of the front sump pan will NOT work (at least in may case) with the car as the pan will rest right on the tie rod (ask me how I know....). The car pan and sump can be swapped directly to the truck motor in order to have the correct orientation. I'll try to get some pictures on here later. 

 

EDIT: Since there was not a fluid drive on there or anywhere in this equation you can probably disregard anything about the bellhousing and rear mounts that I mentioned. also I cant see the pan of the 218 so the orientation may already be correct since it came out of a car *fingers crossed. 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by maddmaxx1949

[duly]

9 hours ago, maddmaxx1949 said:

I want to add to this as well. and I'll try and break it down so it makes sense.  I just swapped a dodge B-1b 218 into my '49 coronet as of last night. 

 

The Coronet had the following:

 - 230 motor - fluid drive coupling (as opposed to standard flywheel) - standard 3 speed transmission with long input shaft. 

- Bellhousing specific to fluid drive which mounts on the crossmember and had more space to house fluid drive coupling. 

- I do believe the truck motor had the 8 bolt crank but I will double check today.

- PLEASE CHECK to make sure your oil pan orientation is the correct way! (will explain below)**

 

The truck 218 had the following:

- 218 motor - standard flywheel - 4 speed manual transmission with pto (donor trans that I had lying around to test)

- Bellhousing and mounts matched yours in the picture of the Pymouth motor. They will not accomodate the fluid drive coupling and the mounts will not work as the fluid drive bellhousing is mounted on the crossmember and not bolted to the side of the frame.

 

**Oil pan orientation: Dodge cars for that era had a rear oil sump with the thick part of the pan on the rear side of the engine whereas some of the 218 dodge trucks had a forward sump and the thick part of the oil pan up front. The orientation of the front sump pan will NOT work (at least in may case) with the car as the pan will rest right on the tie rod (ask me how I know....). The car pan and sump can be swapped directly to the truck motor in order to have the correct orientation. I'll try to get some pictures on here later. 

 

EDIT: Since there was not a fluid drive on there or anywhere in this equation you can probably disregard anything about the bellhousing and rear mounts that I mentioned. also I cant see the pan of the 218 so the orientation may already be correct since it came out of a car *fingers crossed. 

 

Thank you for all that. I know I will run into some issues, but as long as they are not major I feel this should work. Wont know until it all goes in. You gave me plenty to look at before I jump into this and it will go a lil smoother. I understand I shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel but there are not Plymouth/Dodge/Chrysler flatheads just laying around so I got what I got. 

 

Thanks

[duly]

oil pan and bellhousing on 218.

[Mark D]

Set the crane up yesterday then laid down on the floor, the cold concrete floor in an unheated garage, with a balmy 26° and snowing outside. Said to myself what are you doing? Post of the car on line, and had eight people lined up within three hours. This projects going to go to somebody else with more time and heated garage. Will use the new found space to work on my 28 Chrysler. Best of luck Duly, I’ll be following the conversation.