51 B3B build thread - after all these years

[bkahler]

On 9/16/2020 at 9:54 PM, JBNeal said:

Don't forget the window frame welting...

 

Interesting.  There wasn't any welting in my truck when I took it apart.  I thought I had read somewhere that not all trucks/years had welting and looking at the parts manual it's listed for B1 and B2 but not B3.

Edited October 20, 2020 by bkahler

[Brent B3B]

2 hours ago, bkahler said:

 

Interesting.  There wasn't any welding in my truck when I took it apart.  I thought I had read somewhere that not all trucks/years had welding and looking at the parts manual it's listed for B1 and B2 but not B3.

I remember reading that also.... I haven't seen it on my trucks either (yet) 

 

on the windshield install, right or wrong, on my b3b I will install the column first, then the glass, then the steering wheel.... (but, I usually over think things ) 

 

[bkahler]

1 hour ago, Brent B3B said:

I remember reading that also.... I haven't seen it on my trucks either (yet) 

 

on the windshield install, right or wrong, on my b3b I will install the column first, then the glass, then the steering wheel.... (but, I usually over think things ) 

 

 

This is probably the only good picture I have of my window trim before I dismantled the truck.  Not the best picture and I've enlarged it which helps a little bit.

 

[bkahler]

I have a quick question on the steering knuckle/king pin installation.  The king pin is held in place by a bolt, and then there are dust cover/oil seals installed top and bottom.  My question is do the dust covers need to be sealed with anything when they are put in place?   Staking them place I understand, but I can't find any mention as to whether or not to use sealant.

 

Thanks!

 

Brad

[Merle Coggins]

They are welsh plugs. Install them the same way you would do on an engine for coolant welsh plugs, aka 'freeze plugs'. 

Set them in and dimple them flat with a hammer, or large drift punch. No sealant is needed if the surfaces are clean. 

[ggdad1951]

Just know the 51-53 had no welding behind the bezel as the previous year did.  Would not hurt to put it on, but isn't "correct"

[bkahler]

On 9/18/2020 at 7:34 AM, Merle Coggins said:

They are welsh plugs. Install them the same way you would do on an engine for coolant welsh plugs, aka 'freeze plugs'. 

Set them in and dimple them flat with a hammer, or large drift punch. No sealant is needed if the surfaces are clean. 

 

Interesting, I've never installed welsh plugs without using sealant, that's the way I was taught.

 

Based on the greasy grungy messes I've seen around the king pins it would seem most people don't get them set correctly

 

Thanks,

 

Brad

[bkahler]

On 9/18/2020 at 8:15 AM, ggdad1951 said:

Just know the 51-53 had no welding behind the bezel as the previous year did.  Would not hurt to put it on, but isn't "correct"

 

So what's the purpose of the welting?

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by bkahler

[bkahler]

Starting to get things done again on the truck finally.  The steering gearbox is now bolted to the frame.  I still need to install the steering wheel and horn assembly along with the little clip on cover that goes at the bottom of the tube.  I spent some quality time making sure I got the worm adjusted as best I could.  With the star washer you kind of have to pick a happy medium but overall I'm quite happy with how it came out.  I won't know how good it is until I actually drive the truck.

 

 

 

 

I also finished assembling the fuel pump.  I used a kit purchased from Then And Now Automotive.  They supply a good kit with lousy instructions.  I had to kind of guess as to which parts to use at times.  The biggest confusion was with the lever pin.  They supplied two different pins, a short one and a long one.  The long one might have worked but it wasn't as long as the original.  I ended up using the short pin along with the two small freeze plugs they supplied.  You can see the freeze plugs in the pictures.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brad

Edited September 21, 2020 by bkahler

[ggdad1951]

52 minutes ago, bkahler said:

 

So what's the purpose of the welting?

 

 

"anti-squeak" is the most common thought.  Since the parts CAN'T really move around since the cab is solid there (where's the squeak gonna come from?), my thought is more along the lines of a seal to the window.  Every B3 or B4 I've taken that bezel off doesn't have it, in fact it's "stapled" on the B1/B2's I've dismantled, so it's pretty easy to see if it was there or not.  IMO, it isn't worth dealing with.

[bkahler]

19 minutes ago, ggdad1951 said:

 

"anti-squeak" is the most common thought.  Since the parts CAN'T really move around since the cab is solid there (where's the squeak gonna come from?), my thought is more along the lines of a seal to the window.  Every B3 or B4 I've taken that bezel off doesn't have it, in fact it's "stapled" on the B1/B2's I've dismantled, so it's pretty easy to see if it was there or not.  IMO, it isn't worth dealing with.

 

I think I'll start off by leaving it out and if it squeaks then I'll deal with it at that time.

 

Thanks.

[Young Ed]

1 hour ago, bkahler said:

 

I also finished assembling the fuel pump.  I used a kit purchased from Then And Now Automotive.  They supply a good kit with lousy instructions.  I had to kind of guess as to which parts to use at times.  The biggest confusion was with the lever pin.  They supplied two different pins, a short one and a long one.  The long one might have worked but it wasn't as long as the original.  I ended up using the short pin along with the two small freeze plugs they supplied.  You can see the freeze plugs in the pictures.  

 

 

Brad

If the longer pin would fit and allow a clip on each side I would suggest using that versus the short one. The most common mode of failure is that pin working its way out and then allowing the arm to fall apart.

[JBNeal]

9 hours ago, bkahler said:

 

So what's the purpose of the welting?

 

The linked thread mentions and gives examples of the welting filling gaps between the cab and trim, most notably at the trim corners as the trim contour does not exactly follow the cab contour...looking at the trucks in the yard, that open gap at the trim corners on the B3s and the B4 is noticeable but filled with welting on the B1s, giving it a slightly refined look...

 

The fuel pump arm pin issue has been ongoing since the rebuild kits got away from the robust design that utilized circlips and have tried cheaper methods of pin retention...those cups are wedged in place and it takes much less force to displace those from a pin that wants to walk out than the circlip design, which has the mechanical advantage of its seating groove.  I'd be tempted to fab a little U-shaped bracket that had a screw running thru it for clamping so them cups would be mechanically restricted,  kinda like an oddball C-clamp or a clothespin, but it'd probably look better if it just had a good pin with mechanical fasteners on the ends to keep it from walking off

[bkahler]

On 9/21/2020 at 5:29 PM, JBNeal said:

The linked thread mentions and gives examples of the welting filling gaps between the cab and trim, most notably at the trim corners as the trim contour does not exactly follow the cab contour...looking at the trucks in the yard, that open gap at the trim corners on the B3s and the B4 is noticeable but filled with welting on the B1s, giving it a slightly refined look...

 

I wonder if they eliminated the welting due to the Korean war?  Dodge changed various things to help with the war effort like eliminating stainless grille bars, etc.  Maybe felt was in short supply?  I assume the welting was made from felt that is.

 

 

Quote

The fuel pump arm pin issue has been ongoing since the rebuild kits got away from the robust design that utilized circlips and have tried cheaper methods of pin retention...those cups are wedged in place and it takes much less force to displace those from a pin that wants to walk out than the circlip design, which has the mechanical advantage of its seating groove.  I'd be tempted to fab a little U-shaped bracket that had a screw running thru it for clamping so them cups would be mechanically restricted,  kinda like an oddball C-clamp or a clothespin, but it'd probably look better if it just had a good pin with mechanical fasteners on the ends to keep it from walking off

 

The two pins provided in the kit were shorter than the original pin.  So there are reports of pins working loose when used with the cups?

 

Both the old pin and the new pins measure .2442" in diameter.  The pin would need to be about 1-1/2" or longer in order to have circlips at each end.  I'll have to check the diameter of some socket head cap screws to see how close they are to .2442".  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by bkahler

[bkahler]

Next problem.  

 

Three of the four grease zerks on the front spindles are bad.  I'm at a loss as to what size thread the original grease zerks used although they look to be 1/8-27 npt tapered.  I've looked everywhere but can only find what is labeled as 1/8 npt straight and they do not fit.  Nor do ones labeled 1/8-28.  I don't consider screwing in one thread being a good fit!

 

Anyone have a source for proper replacement zerks?

 

 

[ggdad1951]

I got all my replacement zerks at NAPA, and I replaced them ALL!

 

Back to the welting, your reasoning might be right, who knows? I don't think it really adds anything, actually to me it is a detractor when you see it sneaking out on the edges.  

[Los_Control]

I never thought of zirks as a problem. I had some bad ones and pulled one, took it to local Car Quest auto parts store, bought 10 of them. Then later went back and bought a couple with a 90 degree head on them.

Simply a non issue I thought.

 

 

[bkahler]

15 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I never thought of zirks as a problem. I had some bad ones and pulled one, took it to local Car Quest auto parts store, bought 10 of them. Then later went back and bought a couple with a 90 degree head on them.

Simply a non issue I thought.

 

 

 

I've found replacements for all of them except for the four on the steering knuckles.  The bulk of the suspension was 3/8-24 thread with two up front being 1/4-28.  But the four on the knuckle just don't match anything I've found yet.  Mark suggested Napa, unfortunately the Napa in my area isn't as good as most of them that I've been in.  But, it might be worth a try just in case.  The O'Reillys, Advance Auto and Autozone stores in my area are all pretty much clueless if you can't give them a part number

 

[JBNeal]

The fuel pump pin might could be tapped for a #4 screw, #6 looks to not leave a lot of material left and ya have to be dead centered...#4 is kinda small for this application, I'd be afraid vibrations would cause shearing across a thread...was there any significant wear on your old pin?

 

As for the welting elimination, that is more than likely a cost cutting move to improve margins...looking at the cab improvements of the early C-series and the competition, Dodge engineers were probably well on their way to drawing up a better cab when the B-3s went into production, and little stuff like trim welting was probably on their short list to eliminate...

 

Zerk fittings have always been tricky on older machines because the risk of stripping threads is a significant issue, especially on them smaller zerks.  The zerk fittings that I have replaced came from one of those assorted packs that can be had at any chain store, contents made in Taiwan seem to be better made these days than made in china (go figure).  On the 1/8 fittings, I would carefully extract the old frozen fittings, clean out the threads with a pick since I didn't have a tap, thread the new fitting in by finger, back out to see how deep it was threading in, then re-insert and tighten 1/8 turn beyond finger tight, extract the fitting again to examine the threads for any damage, then use my judgment on how much deeper to turn in...I recall aiming for finger tight + 3/16 turn for final torque on them 1/8" zerks, but I definitely would go by feel for anything beyond 1/8 turn as that might be enough to lock that zerk in place

[bkahler]

19 hours ago, JBNeal said:

The fuel pump pin might could be tapped for a #4 screw, #6 looks to not leave a lot of material left and ya have to be dead centered...#4 is kinda small for this application, I'd be afraid vibrations would cause shearing across a thread...was there any significant wear on your old pin?

 

I would think the shaft would need to be a hardened to keep from having a groove worn into it from the arm.  I'm not sure I'd want to try and tap a hardened shaft with a #4 or #6 screw!  

 

On the original pin you can see wear lines but you can't feel them.  

 

When I bought the rebuild kits I bought two of them, planning on rebuilding a second pump.  What I will probably do is install this pump and start rebuilding a second one.  I'll have a chat with my machinist to see what he recommends for a pin.  I'm thinking that a 2" long 1/4" socket head cap screw might be able to have the shank polished down to .2442".  From there it should be an easy to use as a pin.  I would think a nyloc nut would be sufficient to hold it in place.

 

19 hours ago, JBNeal said:

As for the welting elimination, that is more than likely a cost cutting move to improve margins...looking at the cab improvements of the early C-series and the competition, Dodge engineers were probably well on their way to drawing up a better cab when the B-3s went into production, and little stuff like trim welting was probably on their short list to eliminate...

 

It would be interesting to see "meeting minutes" from the engineering design review meetings that were held as changes were coming about.  

 

19 hours ago, JBNeal said:

Zerk fittings have always been tricky on older machines because the risk of stripping threads is a significant issue, especially on them smaller zerks.  The zerk fittings that I have replaced came from one of those assorted packs that can be had at any chain store, contents made in Taiwan seem to be better made these days than made in china (go figure).  On the 1/8 fittings, I would carefully extract the old frozen fittings, clean out the threads with a pick since I didn't have a tap, thread the new fitting in by finger, back out to see how deep it was threading in, then re-insert and tighten 1/8 turn beyond finger tight, extract the fitting again to examine the threads for any damage, then use my judgment on how much deeper to turn in...I recall aiming for finger tight + 3/16 turn for final torque on them 1/8" zerks, but I definitely would go by feel for anything beyond 1/8 turn as that might be enough to lock that zerk in place

 

I browsed McMaster Carr and they had nothing to offer in a 1/8" taper fitting.  I'll give the local napa a try, I've got a better chance with them than any of the other places in town.

 

I have all four of the grease zerks out, that's how I found out three of four springs were broken inside.  I carefully ran an 1/8" pipe tap into the hole and it went smoothly which is why I'm fairly certain the fitting needs to be a tapered fitting.  I've tried the 1/8-npt "straight" thread fitting and I can get it in about 1/2 maybe 3/4 turn and that's it.  I even tried snugging slightly with a wrench and it was pretty obvious that was a bad idea.

 

Of all the things on this truck I figured I might have problems with, grease zerks were not on that list!

 

Brad

 

 

 

[Brent B3B]

When I worked at the fast lube shops we carried zerk fittings (but in the 80’s and 90’s more vehicles had fittings)

 

I guess the photos are deceiving, the “H-200-DR” kinda looks tapered 

https://saeproducts.com/ptf-grease-fittings.html 

 

Side note, this was one of my favorite lube tips back in the day ?

https://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Lubrication-5883-Slotted-Coupler/dp/B000G76OMA

 

[ggdad1951]

yah that pin should have some heat treat to it or you will have wear issues.  what about shoulder bolts?

 

https://www.fullerfasteners.com/products/imperial-shoulder-bolt/

[Jeff Balazs]

Brad;

As far as steering adjustments go you should expect to have to adjust it after a bit of a break in period. It is no big deal. I have put at least 25K miles on mine and I typically adjust it about every year and a half. Very small adjustments. I did not have to rebuild my steering gearbox. But I do keep it topped up with Mobil 1 synthetic axle grease instead of "lighter" grease. No leaks and it works just fine. One thing that definitely makes a difference on the steering with these trucks is keeping the tire pressure correct for the tires you are using.

 

FWIW I know a lot of folks like the look of the mechanical fuel pumps on these trucks. Personally I think they are a potential problem waiting to happen. One of two things can happen when they do fail. The least significant is you can stall in traffic. The bigger problem that can rear it's ugly head is if the pump leaks internally and dilutes the oil in the crankcase. And I might add that usually when this happens the engine still gets enough fuel to continue running. I blanked my mount off and run a full time electric fuel pump to eliminate this from happening.

If one was concerned about the looks of this one could go ahead and mount a pump and dummy up the fuel lines......

 

Jeff

[JBNeal]

Them zerk fittings are not terribly expensive, ya might be able to file or grind off the threads to get an acceptable taper..."trim to fit"

Edited September 23, 2020 by JBNeal

[bkahler]

On 9/23/2020 at 11:08 AM, Brent B3B said:

When I worked at the fast lube shops we carried zerk fittings (but in the 80’s and 90’s more vehicles had fittings)

 

I guess the photos are deceiving, the “H-200-DR” kinda looks tapered 

https://saeproducts.com/ptf-grease-fittings.html 

 

Side note, this was one of my favorite lube tips back in the day ?

https://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Lubrication-5883-Slotted-Coupler/dp/B000G76OMA

 

 

All,

 

Grease zerk problem is solved.  Napa had a pack of zerks that stated "Assorted 1/8 taper pipe thread fittings".  There were four straight, two 45 and two 90 fittings in the kit.  They were actually tapered fittings and fit the threads in the knuckle just fine.  Prior to stopping at Napa this morning I tried Tractor Supply and Autozone and saw nothing on their shelves that looked worth trying.  

 

Brent,

 

That lube tip looks handy, I'll be ordering one from Amazon shortly.

 

Thanks!

 

Brad