Rebuilding engine

[40desoto]

So I have settled on a shop to rebuilt my 265 engine.  What type of details should I inquire about and expect?

What parts are standard expectations when a shop rebuilds a motor?  What should be new and what should be reused?

ie;

-All new valve seats or just reground?

- New cam?

-Balance crank and flywheel? Should it be balanced together?

-New oil pump,  water pump?

- New valve lifters?

New Valve guides?

I just dont want to offend the shop by asking too many stupid questions.  Is it fair to ask all details as far as where exactly they got all the parts from?  Do parts really vary that much between Bernbaums, Egee, Kanter, etc?

I've have never spend this much on an engine and accessories so Im being cautious and would like receipt with all details on the machine work that was done and what parts where replace, etc..   Is this asking too much?

 

Any input is appreciated.

 

[MackTheFinger]

It wouldn't be out of line to ask those questions. After all, it's your money and your engine. In my experience balancing is generally treated as an extra service. Parts are refurbished when possible and economically feasible. Connecting rod bearings, main bearings, cam bearings, camshaft and lifters, and rings should be replaced. It's rare to find an engine with many miles on it that doesn't require cylinder boring and piston replacement. Crankshafts can usually be ground and proper bearings installed. Connecting rods will need to be resized and bushed. Valves and seats can be ground if not too worn. Valve guides should be replaced. Line boring isn't always required but should be checked. New oil and water pumps are cheap insurance. Detailed paperwork should be supplied and any parts that were too bad to use should be returned. The machine shop may have a source for parts other than the ones you mention so it wouldn't hurt to ask them.

I used the same couple of machine shops for the last 40 something years. One of them was a one-man operation and we became close friends over the years. Sadly he passed away last year so I'm stuck with one local production shop that I trust. There are some local specialty machine shops but they're more committed to commercial customers. I've had work languish for months at those.

Good luck!!

Edited August 18, 2017 by MackTheFinger
adding content

[thebeebe5]

Mack's right.  First engine I ever took in I'd made a long list.  The shop owner sat with me and answered every question.  He was actually pleased that I was that interested.  Give him time to answer before jumping to the next question.  Also, maybe establish an email thread he can answer at his leisure (when not working on yours or other's engines).   Has worked for me in the past.  

Good luck, and post some progress pictures!

[bob westphal]

Make sure that your builder is familiar with these older engines. Many modern shops aren't and few do balancing and usually send parts to shops that specialize in balancing. It is a good idea to balance the piston rod assemblies too while your at it. I have found that some older engine parts, like valves and lifters, aren't available at the normal parts suppliers so definitely ask the builder about his suppliers. Egge and Kanter sell superb complete rebuild kits. I don't care much for Bernbaum so I only use them when I can't find it somewhere else.

Bob

[40desoto]

Thank you for all the great Info.  I think I'm going to go the email route in communicating with them that way I have details in writing

he quoted me a price for all parts and machine work. And an additional $1000 for painting the block and full assembly.

Im tempted to assemble it myself but worried that the shop will not warrantee the work or not do as good of a job knowing that they will not be the ones assembling it.

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

6 hours ago, 40desoto said:

in part......

Im tempted to assemble it myself but worried that the shop will not warrantee the work or not do as good of a job knowing that they will not be the ones assembling it.

 

 

If that concerned me in any manner I would not trust them from the get go...I would look for a better machine shop

[belvedere]

This guy can regrind your cam & lifters:  http://www.edgyspeedshop.com/index2.html

[40desoto]

1 hour ago, belvedere said:

This guy can regrind your cam & lifters:  http://www.edgyspeedshop.com/index2.html

I've just recently got a general understanding of what a reground cam is. What is the true benefit?  Is there a risk that the valves will hit the head since te head and deck have been shaved a bit? Will it weaken the cam since it's taking meat off of it?   Is the overall benefit to open the valves more or to open and shut quicker?

Wouldnt increasing the slope of the lobe on the cam have a negative impact on the lifter?  Pressure, heat, wear at an angle?

i would like to hop the engine up a bit, but I'm primarily gonna use the car for a cruiser most of the time.... but.. can never go wrong with a bit more power

 

[Andydodge]

Grinding the cam is generally to achieve a couple of things........... a reground cam is using yours or another 2nd hand cam, a new billet is just that a brand new piece of cast steel with the cams ground to suit, sometimes a new billet is preferred as it can be made to accommodate a higher lift and longer duration over and above what a stock cam will allow due to larger cam profiles to start with......off course their are limits to what is practicable due to cam bearing size, lifter shape, etc  ........the increase in the lift and therefore the height that the valves open thereby allowing more fuel & air in and changing the amount of time, ie, the duration, that the valves stay open and also allowing more air/fuel in, the change in cam ramp or slope can also help as well to increase power.......I had a stock 230 industrial cam reground by a local Oz company, Waggotts and while I unfortunately didn't get to finish the engine build they assured me there would be approx. 20% more power in the 1/2 race cam they did.....they were a long time Oz speedway and general race car engine building company and knew what they did, the cam had a longer duration grind and lift........grinding the cam will in no way weaken the cam although I didn't get to the stage of getting the rest of the  machining done on the 230 but with other engines I've played with over the years its worth paying a little extra and getting the reciprocating assembly balanced......crank, rods, pistons, flywheel/flexplate, clutch assembly and front pulley if needed.........balancing makes any engine smoother and generally much more responsive, at least from what I've found..........andyd       

[Andydodge]

40Desoto.........that's not your 40 Desoto Coupe on ebay at present is it?...................lol............its dark blue with some rubbed thru paint here & there?........lol..........andyd

[Don Coatney]

I did a regrind on my cam. Prior to installing the shaved head I used a dial indicator to measure the lift to insure I had ample valve to head clearance.

[40desoto]

4 hours ago, Andydodge said:

40Desoto.........that's not your 40 Desoto Coupe on ebay at present is it?...................lol............its dark blue with some rubbed thru paint here & there?........lol..........andyd

Ha.  No it's not. He's a local guy  and about 2 years ago I saw it on an ad for $6k called the guy and he was a bit offended that I though it would be on sale for 6k.   Not a bad looking car.  

 

 

[40desoto]

4 hours ago, Andydodge said:

Grinding the cam is generally to achieve a couple of things........... a reground cam is using yours or another 2nd hand cam, a new billet is just that a brand new piece of cast steel with the cams ground to suit, sometimes a new billet is preferred as it can be made to accommodate a higher lift and longer duration over and above what a stock cam will allow due to larger cam profiles to start with......off course their are limits to what is practicable due to cam bearing size, lifter shape, etc  ........the increase in the lift and therefore the height that the valves open thereby allowing more fuel & air in and changing the amount of time, ie, the duration, that the valves stay open and also allowing more air/fuel in, the change in cam ramp or slope can also help as well to increase power.......I had a stock 230 industrial cam reground by a local Oz company, Waggotts and while I unfortunately didn't get to finish the engine build they assured me there would be approx. 20% more power in the 1/2 race cam they did.....they were a long time Oz speedway and general race car engine building company and knew what they did, the cam had a longer duration grind and lift........grinding the cam will in no way weaken the cam although I didn't get to the stage of getting the rest of the  machining done on the 230 but with other engines I've played with over the years its worth paying a little extra and getting the reciprocating assembly balanced......crank, rods, pistons, flywheel/flexplate, clutch assembly and front pulley if needed.........balancing makes any engine smoother and generally much more responsive, at least from what I've found..........andyd       

Thank you for the information. I'm going to look into a mild grind.  Might give Earl a call later in the day to get his input.

[DJ194950]

Take a look a look at what VPW sells and maybe a call to check the specs on their HP cam and spring setup-

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxzO_Oy1EMLIWVFzSHRzNjlOMWs/view

Its in the engine section with stock cams.

I personally have no experience with VPW or the cam but many others on the forum have over the years have had good luck with them as posted.

DJ

[belvedere]

I told Earl I was basically doing a stock rebuild.  He recommended a grind that he said would work well with stock specs yet (in his words) "wake up the engine".  He also ground the lifters, all at what I felt was a very fair price.

[40desoto]

Belvedere, did he provide the cam or did you have to ship him yours?  

[40desoto]

Thanks to all that have contributed to all my questions.  I have a good feeling about the shop that is rebuilding my motor now.

They are going to send out my cam to be ground, crank and flywheel balanced along with my flywheel lightened for a reasonable price.

They will also be priming, and painting the engine as well.

I will keep all posted on the results.

 

 

 

[medium_jon]

10 minutes ago, 40desoto said:

 

I will keep all posted on the results.

Yes please

[40desoto]

16 months later the engine is done.  I think the shop needed some xmas money so the contacted me a month ago to let me know id be done before Xmas.

 

 

[Dave72dt]

Nice way to close out the year, for both you and the rebuilder.  Very nicely done.

[jyinger]

This engine is going in your '40 Desoto, right?   I recently had a 236 Desoto engine rebuilt  in Santa Fe Springs (I'm in Brea) to go in my '42 Desoto custom club coupe that I'm restoring.  The engine is slightly improved--including three one barrels--like yours?--a little bump in compression, etc.

 

Anyway, we have to finish work on Camilla Cream (my '51 Imperial convertible), and then get back to work on DD2.  

 

We should compare notes, huh?

 

Jon      jyinger1@gmail.com

[40desoto]

On 1/6/2019 at 10:47 AM, jyinger said:

This engine is going in your '40 Desoto, right?   I recently had a 236 Desoto engine rebuilt  in Santa Fe Springs (I'm in Brea) to go in my '42 Desoto custom club coupe that I'm restoring.  The engine is slightly improved--including three one barrels--like yours?--a little bump in compression, etc.

 

Anyway, we have to finish work on Camilla Cream (my '51 Imperial convertible), and then get back to work on DD2.  

 

We should compare notes, huh?

 

Jon      jyinger1@gmail.com

Hello Jon, defnitely.  I'll send you an email.

 

[maok]

On 8/22/2017 at 2:02 PM, belvedere said:

I told Earl I was basically doing a stock rebuild.  He recommended a grind that he said would work well with stock specs yet (in his words) "wake up the engine".  He also ground the lifters, all at what I felt was a very fair price.

 

You have the most interesting 'stock' rebuilt engine I have have ever seen, love to see your race engines....lol

 

Looks awesome mate. Congratulation!

 

Do you know how much they have taken off the head?

 

On 12/28/2018 at 2:23 AM, 40desoto said:

16 months later the engine is done.  I think the shop needed some xmas money so the contacted me a month ago to let me know id be done before Xmas.

 

 

 

[40desoto]

1 hour ago, maok said:

 

You have the most interesting 'stock' rebuilt engine I have have ever seen, love to see your race engines....lol

 

Looks awesome mate. Congratulation!

 

Do you know how much they have taken off the head?

 

 

Not sure if your question regarding how much off the head was directed at me, but I did notice that they didnt specify on the paperwork.  I will ask the shop.  I dont know how much had been removed before so i'll most likely never know how much has been taken off from the original head.

 

[40desoto]

So I was excited to get the engine started for the first time.  Everything connected, oil with engine break in additive added and ready for my neighbor to give me a hand.

 

Radiator was not filled all the way so when my friend arrived we proceeded to fill the radiator when I start noticing water coming out of some head studs and from the water pumps mating surface..  

 

Any recommendations on how to proceed?  The shop installed ARP studs and they stated that they did add sealant to the studs before installing.