Rebuilding A Flathead

[Don Coatney]

Remember when you look for an engine that you have a Desoto with a 25" block same as Chrysler. These engines are not as common as the 23" engine used in Dodge and Plymouth. Also boring the block for oversized pistons or line boring for crankshaft bearings is not something you will do in your garage Honing the cylinders can be done at home.

[Bingster]

I do recall seeing the 25" block mentioned somewhere or another.  That's a good point, a mistake I could easily have made.  Now where to find an old flat head in Iowa. I do have a classic car museum near me that does all their own restorations.  I imagine I'll be bending their ears quite a bit when I do this project.  By the way, what will I be paying for a flat head and how can I tell if it's a worthy candidate?

[james curl]

When I rebuilt my engine in 2006 the machine work alone was $900.Dollars, then the new parts was another $900.00.  Also had to have the clutch rebuilt and the flywheel resurfaced as well as having the harmonic balancer rebuilt and the cam re-profiled.  Now I might have gone a little overboard as I replaced the fuel pump, oil pump and water pump with new ones.  I used the crank after it was turned and the rods after rebuilding, straighten and re-bushed. Everything else was new parts.  It might be cheaper to check with Jasper's for a complete rebuilt replacement.

[Bingster]

Yeah, I've thought of that after seeing some rebuilt flat heads for sale by private owner for 1K or so.  But then you don't really know what you're getting from a private owner.  I'll have to Google Jasper's.

[Reg Evans]

Does Jasper's really sell flat 6's for our cars ?  I went on their site and the listings only went back to 1970.

[pflaming]

I don't understand the amount of money some spend on engine re building, I'm not critical of them, but to the beginner there are many less expensive ways.  For example, Vintage Power Wagons sells complete engines, sans external items such as starters,  ready to run for $750. One could easily find an engine, maybe two, with good oil pressure and compression, paint it up really nice and run it til it quits and have an extra waiting.

as long as I am within 250 miles from home, I never worry about failure because AAA two package gives me two 250 mile tows a year.  So I stand firm on my premise that $$$ is not required in this hobby.

As I write, on Craigslist,there is a very solid 1954 Belvedere sedan for $1,000 OBO. The catch, no engine or transmission. I have an extra e&t, if I was not swamped just now, I would get me 8, $100 bills and take a look. I would bet I would come home with the car and maybe a bill or two left over. 

[BigDaddyO]

41 minutes ago, pflaming said:

 Vintage Power Wagons sells complete engines, sans external items such as starters,  ready to run for $750.

 

These are listed as a "Used Buildable Engine Core". And then there is the shipping cost.

[Tom Skinner]

Wow, I know one thing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Drive it until it needs the work, then determine just what needs fixing and fix it.

No one needs to part with thousands of dollars for these old buses. They run run on and on, just like the Energizer Bunny.

[Bingster]

I maybe should have started a new thread but this seems to be in line with the subject matter we're talking about.

After changing my oil, I looked over the engine again with an eye toward the new knowledge I've learned in just the past few days. Here is a photo of the exhaust manifold to exhaust pipe flange and gasket.  As you can see there seems to be a leak.  What would cause oil to leak into the exhaust manifold? 

[Bingster]

Moderator:  How can I control the size of these photos?  Do I have to edit before I post? Sorry.

[P15-D24]

41 minutes ago, Bingster said:

Moderator:    Do I have to edit before I post? Sorry.

Yes. When you try to upload it will tell you max upload size. It too large it will throw an error. 

[_shel_ny]

1 hour ago, Bingster said:

Moderator:  How can I control the size of these photos?  Do I have to edit before I post? Sorry.

As an aside to your picture size question,  along with the individual picture size limit, you also have an overall content limit associated to pictures.

When you reach that limit you will need to go into "manage attachments" to make some room by deleting some.

When I do pics I generally try to size/crop them down as small as I can while still displaying what I want to be seen. One currently inactive (not on since 6/2014) forum member displayed pics so large you could only see 1/2 to 2/3 of it on a 21" monitor. Sort of pointless to do.

[Niel Hoback]

You may have a leaking tappet cover gasket directly behind the pipe. If that much oil were in your exhaust, you would have a lot on blue smoke.

[Bingster]

When I fire up the engine I'll see how much blue smoke there might be.  Is replacing that gasket a complicated affair?

[Don Coatney]

I initially used a rubber gasket and it leaked. Replaced it with a cork gasket (no sealant just greased on both sides) and no more leaks.

[Jeff Balazs]

18 hours ago, pflaming said:

I don't understand the amount of money some spend on engine re building, I'm not critical of them, but to the beginner there are many less expensive ways.  For example, Vintage Power Wagons sells complete engines, sans external items such as starters,  ready to run for $750. One could easily find an engine, maybe two, with good oil pressure and compression, paint it up really nice and run it til it quits and have an extra waiting.

as long as I am within 250 miles from home, I never worry about failure because AAA two package gives me two 250 mile tows a year.  So I stand firm on my premise that $$$ is not required in this hobby.

As I write, on Craigslist,there is a very solid 1954 Belvedere sedan for $1,000 OBO. The catch, no engine or transmission. I have an extra e&t, if I was not swamped just now, I would get me 8, $100 bills and take a look. I would bet I would come home with the car and maybe a bill or two left over. 

Paul; Ever since you made this comment I have been trying to put into words how I feel about it.

We all have different attitudes about this. And it seems sometimes those differences are quite radical. As an example getting back home on the end of a hook is totally unacceptable to me. The only exception being a bad accident. Anything else? Well then it is time to hang my head in shame. Road going cars and trucks are not toys and should never be treated like they are. Period.

I will agree that spending lot's of money isn't always the answer.......but then I don't think gathering up a collection of derelicts for parts is either. The object should always be to build the best most reliable and safest vehicle you can. Anything less IMO just shows a lack of respect for the cars and the people around you.

Jeff

[_shel_ny]

2 hours ago, Niel Hoback said:

You may have a leaking tappet cover gasket directly behind the pipe. If that much oil were in your exhaust, you would have a lot on blue smoke.

My guess would also be something external unless you have dumped lots and lots of stuff into the cylinders to loosen things up.  easy path for things added is out an open exhaust valve.  The flange gasket from the manifold to the exhaust pipe should keep it sealed to prevent anything from coming out, but you never know.

 

 

 

 

 

[pflaming]

Jeff, in previous post, I agree with you, my AAA is not to be cheap in building a vehicle but as a safety precaution. And I do not use questionable parts, that makes no sense at all, but I do not adhere to "fix it til it breaks" philosophy either. These vehicles were built to run and work under very different conditions that exist today and thus are very hard to break and will run safely even if not in the best of shape. 

That said, the areas I keep my eyes on are: brakes, tires, oil pressure, heat temp, and other drivers and I look forward to meeting you and seeing your truck. 

 

Paul 

[Jeff Balazs]

Paul;

I am glad to hear you are not actually being flippant about things. And while I agree with you that these vehicles were built tough I would have to say that without the best in build quality and maintenance they could be a challenge to operate safely in today's traffic conditions.

Recently I had some young tuner type pass me going like a bat out of hell and then proceed to run out of gas right after he jogged in front of me. Good thing for him I have disc brakes on all 4 wheels. Otherwise my truck would be wearing a hot rod Subaru as a hood ornament. He had just fitted some new turbo and was more interested in racing around than what might happen as a result. I am pretty certain that me and the fellow behind me made it very clear to him what a bonehead move he had made. Since he was out of gas he had to sit and listen to us.

The bottom line is that we all need to do whatever we have to make our vehicles safe and reliable......and sometimes that means spending some money and even "fixing" stuff that ain't broke.

Jeff

[Bingster]

Thanks Don for the info and photo.  I've been reading about how not to break off bolt heads. I hope I don't!  I know there are places not to use a torch to heat bolts. I've read where if you heat them cherry red and let them cool while squirting penetrating oil down the threads,  you stand a better chance of getting them out intact.  Now, I guess you first try a socket wrench and if that doesn't work then an impact wrench??

[austinsailor]

Back to what he first suggested - doing an "in chassis" overhaul, more or less. If you're doing more than one repair it would be much easier to just remove the motor for the work than all the climbing, leaning and crawling, plus you'll do a much better job. Probably quicker, too. These are not difficult motors to remove and replace.

[DJ194950]

I'm going to go Out there on a long limb with group -I think--

 

An old mechanic told me what he did to exposed old bolts that did not want to come out with normal pressure- like the head bolts on flatties -he used to take a solid punch close to the head size of the bolt and give it good wack or two with a good sized hammer before trying to take them out again.

I never needed to use this on the two Mopar flathead motors that i have worked on as they came out without excess force used. 

I have used this method though on other stuck bolts and it worked Most of the time cutting down the chance of broken bolts.

DJ

[austinsailor]

You can also try tightening and loosening. Alternate. Tiny amounts. Lots of times. The idea is to work loose the corrosion, etc, that is holding it. Similar to the punch idea. Your enemy is impatience. Most will come out with enough piddling.

 

[knuckleharley]

4 hours ago, Bingster said:

Thanks Don for the info and photo.  I've been reading about how not to break off bolt heads. I hope I don't!  I know there are places not to use a torch to heat bolts. I've read where if you heat them cherry red and let them cool while squirting penetrating oil down the threads,  you stand a better chance of getting them out intact.  Now, I guess you first try a socket wrench and if that doesn't work then an impact wrench??

Impact wrench. It's the vibrations that does it.

[RobertKB]

1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

Impact wrench. It's the vibrations that does it.

Ditto