Open Topic Engine Thread?

[austinsailor]

I have a friend who has a 409 Chevy engine in a 62 station wagon.  He has more money stuck into that thing and every time he tries to drive it on the street it blows a head gasket because at 14.5 to 1 CR and way to much cam it can't run at anything under 3K. So it sits on a trailer and goes to the drag strip 2X a year when he has the time and money to pull the heads an get it fixed.  Not the way I want to use my car.  Effective carburation, moderate CR, adequate cooling, and cam'ed for efficient operation between 1200 and 4000 rpms seems to be the ticket for these MoPaR flatheads.  Anything more is trouble waiting to happen.

Back in the mid 60's I had a high performance 273 ci Baracudda with a 4 speed. I had a friend who had a 63 impala 2 door hardtop, 409 with a 4 speed. Right after he had a tune up, he could beat me. Couple hundred miles later the plugs fouled so bad and it was running so bad I could eat his lunch. The cycle repeated over and over.

I traveled the country in mine, he was afraid to leave town.

I get it!

[Plymouthy Adams]

meadowbrook, on 21 Jan 2015 - 2:07 PM, said:

If you don't intend to go faster than before, why improve the brakes? Does faster acceleration required better brakes?

when accelerating who care about brakes....as Enzo Ferrari says...Brakes..they only slow you down....

[55 Fargo]

...

Edited May 12, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[Tim Keith]

I'd recommend that you call George Asche.   I think he might be one of the few who can answer your questions.   Earl Edgerton has raced these motors, call him.  If you've got the bling you can make power from almost any motor.   I kind of know what to do, but my bank account won't let me.  I think George said he can make 200 horsepower from a bored 265.

[55 Fargo]

.....

Edited May 12, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[timkingsbury]

Everyone is talking about the big block Chrysler engines which are two inches longer than the 218/230 short block.  I think for longevity the long block is the better even in the smallest displacement as it does not have to use off set rods.  I feel that the off set rods place a higher load on the rod bearings verses the inline crank throws with the cylinder bores on the long block engines.  I have been told by many old timers that the Plymouth and Dodge engines had soft cranks.  Since most of the people telling me this drove company cars possibly with dubious maintenance out in the oil fields of the west.  I have modified my 218 in many ways and run it hard on the highway having taken one trip of 4800 miles with very little drama.  The only damage the engine has suffered has been self inflected by the owner, such as running 10 degrees static timing over the 4800 mile trip and installing the number one main bearing shell without the hole in the upper half of the journal which caused the number one rod bearing to fail.   These engines are tough engines.

Well I often hear the "weak crank" story, but it seems to always be ford or chev guys who were running around with true weak cast cranks and babbitt  bearings.  Both the engines made on the USA side (23 1/2") and the Canadian engine (25 1/2") had forged cranks and insert bearings. So while agree the offset is corrected in the big block, it really isn't until real extreme rpm, or poor oil, or as you point out "self inflected by the owner" that there was issues.  As well the big block with the 4 3/4 inch stroke with short rods (7.75") do have pressure put on the engine, where the longer rods in say a 4 1/4" motor doesn't have as much pressure.  In fact using the 238 longer rods (8.0") with custom piston so the pin position can be changed, helps that.  But on the whole I firmly believe both the small and large block engines are equally rough and tough engines ! But then James,  I am preaching to the choir I realize.

[Don Coatney]

Follow this link for some interesting reading from a builder who did his testing on a dynamometer and posted his results.

 

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/a-couple-of-pictures-update.238372/

 

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/mopar-flathead-six-on-the-dyno-please-help.298125/

[48Dodger]

when accelerating who care about brakes....as Enzo Ferrari says...Brakes..they only slow you down....

 

Note that I said "braking power", not "stopping power"....lol

Yah....I quote Enzo as much as I quote Andretti (note my signature line)

 

"It's amazing how many drivers think the brakes are for slowing the car down"  Mario Andretti

 

48D

 

[Ulu]

Kind of a non-sequitur, but:

 

On the way home tonight, traffic was doing nearly 50 MPH along the boulevard when someone going west made a left turn across/into eastbound traffic.

 

I was in the #2 lane of 3 lanes eastbound, and the perp got punched hard by the car to my left. I nailed it hard and escaped the real carnage, though some bit of plastic debris hit my truck. I was wishing for more acceleration.

 

The poor guy next to me was probably wishing for better brakes. He slowed from 45+ to maybe 25 at impact, so it could have been a lot worse.

 

Anyhow, better engines and better brakes have always been on my to-do list.

[meadowbrook]

So which year did the stock 230 have the most power? I mean my 50 has 103 hp, didn't it go up to some 130 hp before they dropped it? What were the changes? Are those parts available? Was it just a cam and compression?

[desoto]

I believe cam and compression

 

 year        hp     model

------------------------------------

 42          105    Dodge S-All

46-49      102    Dodge S-All

49           103    Dodge S-All

50           103    Dodge S-All

51           103    Dodge S-All

52           103    Dodge S-All

53           103    Dodge S-D-46, D-47

54           110    Plymouth S-All

(Late) 54 110    Dodge S-All I-6

55            117    Plymouth S-All I-6

55            123    Dodge S-Coronet I-6

56            125    Plymouth S-all exc Fury, Belvedere cvt

56            131    Plymouth O-all exc Fury, Belvedere cvt

56            131    Dodge S-Coronet I-6

57            132    Plymouth S-All exc Fury, Belvedere, cvt

57            138    Dodge S-Coronet I-6

58            132    Plymouth S-All exc Fury, Belvedere cvt

58            138    Dodge S-Coronet I-6

59            132    Plymouth S-Savoy, Belvedere, Suburban exc. Custom 9P, Fury, Sport Fury

59            138    Dodge S-Coronet I-6

 

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/flat.html

 

 

Call George Asche - 814-354-2621 or Tim Kingsbury 519-766-5695   They should be able to help you out if you want more power

Edited January 22, 2015 by desoto

[Andydodge]

Didn't the last couple of yrs of the Plymouth and/or Dodge flattie use a twin barrel carby and 8:1 compression?.......andyd

[deathbound]

There is a direct correlation between the life expectancy of a fully tricked out engine verses a somewhat modified engine. Top Fuel engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light. Including the burnout, the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under load before a complete rebuild is in order. To fully trick out an engine for street use does not make a lot of sense to me unless you have a pocket full of cash and enjoy rebuilding the engine every week. I would not want to do an overbore to the maximum and squeeze the head down as far as possible for increased compression ratio in a vehicle I want to drive across the country.  

 

On a Mopar L-head engine the "bling" factor in my opinion is more important than a full out horsepower war. It is possible to add multiple carburetion, a lumpy cam, sweet sounding dual exhaust and still maintain dependability. When I pop my hood at a cruise in there are more folks looking under my hood than the guy next to me with the small block shiverlay in his old Ford. I may not win a stop light to stop light drag race but I do have a car that will run all day long at 70 MPG with the engine spinning around 2200 RPM's. It is a lot of fun passing someone at 75 MPH with my exhaust purring and shifting into (5th gear) overdrive as I pass them so they can hear the change in the pitch of my glass packs. Makes them wonder how many gears I have left.

 

My point being that for me dependability and longevity are more important than all out horsepower.

 

 

"but I do have a car that will run all day long at 70 MPG with the engine spinning around 2200 RPM's"- Man I gotta get me one of those smart-car-plymouths!

 

Beat me to it ledfoot. I'd even settle for 65MPG.

[Tim Keith]

_{George likes to talk and he might exaggerate a little, he truly admires the Chrysler L-heads.   His build will stick to fundamentals. He didn't seem to think the aftermarket alloy heads help with power output.  He told me the 265 can safely sustain 4,500 RPM all day.   He said that he suspects that those motors which threw rods were in poor shape or had insufficient oil level in the pan.  These motors are known to run in wounded condition and provide little feedback that that rings are broken.  George willl only say good things about these motors. A conversation with George is almost like talking with a teenager who has built a hot rod.   George mentioned a 218 that someone had installed a turbocharger and said it ran almost like a 318 V8, but he didn't know the long term outcome, but said it sure was a lot of fun.}

 

_{I would think you want to improve crankshaft oiling and make sure the cooling system is in good shape.   I am curious about the short stroke Canadian 218 and how it might work in a T bucket or something else that was very light;  It would seem that the 25-inch 218 would turn higher RPMs.  But if a 265 can safely turn 4,500 RPM, then that is the motor I'd consider for power as it was built for heavy luxury Chryslers when the 331 Hemi was the power option.  With an overdrive or a 5 speed the 265 can cruise without coming close to its red line, and could be dropped down to a lower gear and probably feel almost like a 318.}

 

_{On the HAMB there is a current thread on "Homemade Roller Cam for Flathead Six".   The discussion is beyond my comprehension.}

Edited January 23, 2015 by Tim Keith

[1941Rick]

_{George likes to talk and he might exaggerate a little, he truly admires the Chrysler L-heads.   His build will stick to fundamentals. He didn't seem to think the aftermarket alloy heads help with power output.  He told me the 265 can safely sustain 4,500 RPM all day.   He said that he suspects that those motors which threw rods were in poor shape or had insufficient oil level in the pan.  These motors are known to run in wounded condition and provide little feedback that that rings are broken.  George willl only say good things about these motors. A conversation with George is almost like talking with a teenager who has built a hot rod.   George mentioned a 218 that someone had installed a turbocharger and said it ran almost like a 318 V8, but he didn't know the long term outcome, but said it sure was a lot of fun.}

 

_{I would think you want to improve crankshaft oiling and make sure the cooling system is in good shape.   I am curious about the short stroke Canadian 218 and how it might work in a T bucket or something else that was very light;  It would seem that the 25-inch 218 would turn higher RPMs.  But if a 265 can safely turn 4,500 RPM, then that is the motor I'd consider for power as it was built for heavy luxury Chryslers when the 331 Hemi was the power option.  With an overdrive or a 5 speed the 265 can cruise without coming close to its red line, and could be dropped down to a lower gear and probably feel almost like a 318.}

 

_{On the HAMB there is a current thread on "Homemade Roller Cam for Flathead Six".   The discussion is beyond my comprehension.}

I read this article......and just what is it he ends up with?  Not much. Has to find a job or something

[timkingsbury]

I read this article......and just what is it he ends up with?  Not much. Has to find a job or something

or he is taking automotive engineering or reading articles.  Cool, and I hate to be negative, but he is going no where fast that I see.

 

On the reliability,  there are those who no amount of proof would ever be enough, and for those, please stay in the slow lane,  try and keep it around 2000 rpm and I can likely find an article on following your vacuum gauge for  better performance.

 

But with numerous stock car racing examples of going an entire season with a couple of engines, with revs in excess of 5000 rpm. and most engine damage from the dirt factor and the inability to keep the air clean going into the engine, there is lots of evidence of flathead mopars ability to run at higher rpm for long distances.

 

That is not to suggest that there is not the ability to lessen an engines life  by increasing the rev red line, but there are those who are happy in the closer to stock level in the slow lane, and then there are those of us who prefer a little more spice to our lives..

 

for those...  "meet my little friend"  lol  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r28OZHAAXUU

 

And for those who don't think over 6000 rpm is possible, put your money on the table because I am happy to take your bets and 100% of the money I win

will go to charity..   Now 9000 rpm as discussed in the post on hamb.. I wont say never, but I don't know how to get you there today..

 

Tim

[Don Coatney]

Am I missing something here? Is the film clip of running of a full race engine for a few seconds with no load and under 3 grand supposed to be proof of dependability? Proof of big Horse Power numbers with no dyno paperwork? Proof of racing capabilities with no speed or time results shown? Is it better to gear a vehicle to spin five grand all day long to maintain the legal speed limit? What is the purpose of installing an overdrive transmission other than to reduce engine speed for longevity?

 

It is possible to spin an L head Mopar engine in excess of 5 or perhaps 6 grand for a short time. But I personally don't think such an engine will last for an 800 mile per day road trip spinning in excess of 5 grand. But it will last turning 2000 RPM's at the maximum legal speed limit for a very long time.

 

Race cars and street driven cars are two different animals. Claims of horsepower at given RPM's have little meaning without documentation.

[Tim Keith]

_{On the HAMB there is a current thread on "Homemade Roller Cam for Flathead Six".   The discussion is beyond my comprehension.}

I read this article......and just what is it he ends up with?  Not much. Has to find a job or something

 

A roller camshaft might benefit a flathead with a higher compression ratio because the valves can open quicker and remain at a specific lift longer(flatter).   High compression in a L-head leads to restricted airflow ... diminishing returns.   Maybe that is the goal?   Other than that the only benefit to a roller camshaft can be reduced friction which likely doesn't amount to much power loss.

 

A flathead potentially has the most efficient valve train compared to anything else but experiment electric actuated valves, because everything is direct acting and can be very light weight.   A roller camshaft might accentuate those advantages, maybe a little more power with high compression.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Tim Keith

[55 Fargo]

...

Edited May 12, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[Tim Keith]

Get a 413 L-head Chrysler.  Probably weighs close to 1,000 pounds!  There is no replacement for displacement.

 

A maximum power 23 or 25-inch flathead will run on the ragged edge.  It would be for drag race, tractor pulling.  A  member on the inliners.org site can tell you about his results with a competition 230, but he is really a Hudson man.  The little 230 did okay in a Custom tractor, I think the 230 could run to 6,000 RPM.  It might be fun to talk about this, but it can get really expensive.

 

The thread on Inliners.org is 'Lets Talk Flathead Modifications', there are others over there that are relevant to your query

Edited January 24, 2015 by Tim Keith

[timkingsbury]

Am I missing something here? Is the film clip of running of a full race engine for a few seconds with no load and under 3 grand supposed to be proof of dependability? Proof of big Horse Power numbers with no dyno paperwork? Proof of racing capabilities with no speed or time results shown? Is it better to gear a vehicle to spin five grand all day long to maintain the legal speed limit? What is the purpose of installing an overdrive transmission other than to reduce engine speed for longevity?

 

It is possible to spin an L head Mopar engine in excess of 5 or perhaps 6 grand for a short time. But I personally don't think such an engine will last for an 800 mile per day road trip spinning in excess of 5 grand. But it will last turning 2000 RPM's at the maximum legal speed limit for a very long time.

 

Race cars and street driven cars are two different animals. Claims of horsepower at given RPM's have little meaning without documentation.

Well Don as usual despite your attempt to be an try and suggest your expert on every topic,  as evidenced by your over 18,000 posts, your true expertise is making it up as you go along and trying to make everything a conspiracy. So lets look at your latest rant.

 

Don says - " Is the film clip of running of a full race engine for a few seconds with no load and under 3 grand supposed to be proof of dependability?"

 

Tims response -  did you really think that engine only made it to something under 3000 rpm ? and yes, we all realize if it isn't your car, that you had someone do, it couldn't be reliable.   So Don, just assume it only lasted for 2 minutes and 11 seconds.. it never ran again, never will and don't go away mad, just go away.

 

Don says - "Proof of racing capabilities with no speed or time results shown?"

 

and he rants on and then  Don says - "Claims of horsepower at given RPM's have little meaning without documentation"..

 

Tim says -  Well Don I am not sure who died and made you King, but  I don't need to prove anything to you... period.  .. I have never claimed how fast it goes, what horsepower it is, what eta it would run or anything...  I realize that pains you being everything is a conspiracy and as the self style expert you are, "proof it" is your common theme, when we both know.. no such proof would ever be enough, because if it wasn't done your way and you don't have it, it cant be any good or it cant be true.   So sorry Don to break the bad news to you, but  I have more horsepower than you do, 

 

Now if you still haven't caught on despite making it very clear, I have no intention of ever providing you with anything... I don't care what you think, and  yes, I know after your 18000 posts, with your chest puffed out continually I should in your mind be impressed..  Unfortunately I am not. 

 

 But if you would like to bring your car and race the dragster or my 49 Plymouth, bring it on.  Put your money where your mouth is, or continue to rant about what is it up to now, your 800 miles a day claims and extreme reliability...  because Don, we have no proof you have ever driven 800 miles in a day in your car, and given your credibility, no amount of proof would every be sufficient if the shoe was on the other foot, so why should we believe your claim.

 

Now Don, I am sure your blood pressure will rise, and you will head off to the chat room and huff and puff, and should have lots of  private messages complaining to moderators. and to your pose of friend(s). That is fine, but by the number of notes I have had from a great deal of members of this forum, there are lots waiting for someone to call you out..  But the reality is I like a huge amount of people would prefer you just go away..  If you don't agree, super.. but your act is wearing a little thin so please.. save your breathe because I have no interest in what you have to say..  and yes, I have repeated that a few times so  you get it.. No please.. go away !  This thread was on "The ? Of Chrysler Flathead Hi Performance"  not lets get Dons take on why Hi Performance isn't the way to go, and the only thing that makes sense is a 500 miles a day,.. I mean now 800 miles a day flathead..  if you want to start a thread on that topic, please do and I promise you I will stay well away from it.

Edited January 24, 2015 by timkingsbury

[martybose]

Tim,

 

I wish you the best in your racing efforts, but don't give up your day job, because you have no future in diplomacy .......

 

Marty

[55 Fargo]

...

Edited May 12, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[martybose]

You know Marty, either do you. I started this thread, for the titled reason, and all of a sudden it's get a different twist from a few posters that have no interest in the topic, and there only vested interest is to "poison the waters". Whether it's a case of a fragile ego, or not feeling good about themselves I do not know, or could care a less.

I have no idea your relationship with some of those posters, nor do I really care. But for you to all of a sudden show up, and throw "daggers' yourself, now who is the diplomat, don't think it's you.

I have had no issues with you at any time, and really don't care too., however, you just jump into this thread, and start firin. Now that I call diplomacy....LOL

Well, i have one of the more modified street 230's on this forum, but since it has not been either raced or dynoed I didn't feel I could contribute anything to the thread, so I stayed out of it.  But I have known Don for a long time, and thought his points were valid.  If that bruises your ego, so be it.

 

Marty

[T120]

...Time to put the popcorn on.