1952 Air Cleaner, Heater Duct, & Temp Gauge Questions/help

[Tones52]

This is my 1952 Plymouth Cranbrook that I picked up at the beginning of summer. It's pretty much a stock runner that was lovingly put together by the previous owner in the 20+ years he had it. I not only got a great retirement project but made a friend in the process. While the Plymouth is in overall good condition, it does need some sorting out though and since it's been some 40 years since I've done any real work on a car, I'm hoping that some of what I was able to do will come back. But I do need some help on some items I can't find via the manuals I have.

 

I can set the air cleaner square on the carb & tighten the lower clamp but when I put the upper bracket on, it seems to pull the air cleaner forward a bit. Is this the correct bracket for this year and/or is it in the right location. I've only found 1 other photo of a 52 engine bay and the location of that bracket was across the engine. Any suggestions on fixes would be great.

 

On the heater duct/box  in the engine compartment, there's a double arrow that has "Winter" to the right of it. What is this for and is there a way to adjust this? Would it be something referenced in the owner's manual (which I don't have yet).

 

Finally, I was helping my wife in her classroom and on the drive home it was a particular hot afternoon (high 90's). There was a bit more traffic with stop and go driving and a couple of large hills heading home. The Plymouth's temp gauge climbed just past the mid point but I made it home, While idling in front the house, it climbed more and once parked it pretty much went to the end of the bar and some radiator fluid spewed from the overflow line. I have a 4 lbs radiator cap on top.

 

Rather than risk taking the meat thermometer out, does anyone have a scale of what the approximate temps are at various points on the gauge? Where should the temp gauge needle be once the car has reached once operating temp is reached. I remember my old cars (54 Chevys and 41 Ford) the Temp gauge would reach the 1/3 mark when warmed up.

 

As a next step, would it be OK to flush the system with the over the counter cleaner product and then refill with the 50/50 mix of antifreeze and distilled water or is something more needed? Driving around town (relatively flat) or when the temps are cooler doesn't seem to have it get as hot as the longer drives, traffic, hot temps outside & grades. Thanks in advance for any help provided.

[Robert Horne]

Good idea to flush the cooling system, even you do not have any problems.

 

I have been flushing my 38's cooling system every two weeks, with rain water.

 

Tap water here is not very good.     Ready for 50/50 now.     I read the premixed

 

50/50 antifreeze do not use distilled water, but filtered tap water.

 

There is an antifreeze company, "Evans", that does not use water at all, only

 

coolant....

Edited August 19, 2013 by Robert Horne

[greg g]

You can get an inexpensive kitchen (not oven) thermometer from the grocery store and confirm your coolant temp for actual temp and get an idea what your gauge is indicating.  It is not unusual for the temp to spike on shut down as there is still latent heat in the engine, and you are no longer circulating air or coolant.  The top of the rad is the expansion area, and if you over fill it it will just keep puking it out.  It is showing you it doesn't need or want to be filled.  As long as you are covering the cooling core, you are usually good to go.  an inch over will give you piece of mind. Also remember that if you are running a 50/50 mix of water /coolant your boiling point is about 225 not 212.  So you have more margin than you might think.  Your pictures didn't expand so are hard to see.  On my stock set up the air cleaner brace went to the drivers side of the engine and contained a hook for the throttle return spring.  You might want to move it around to see if you can find an anchor point that better fits the bill.

[Young Ed]

Greg is correct. The 51-52s used a different setup for the return spring but the brace still goes to the side of the head under one of the bolts that hold the coil mount. Here's the engine in my 51.

[Tones52]

Thanks for the quick responses.

 

I retook some photos so hope these are better. The shot from the left fender shows that slight tilt forward of the air cleaner.

 

I appreciated the info on the Pre-Mixed anti-freeze using filtered tap water. I would have assumed they used distilled.

 

I did fill the radiator to the top which didn't allow room for expansion. Thanks for that tip, Greg. I'll look to pick up a cheap meat thermometer when I make my next Target run.

 

My local autoparts store ordered the 160 thermostat and gasket for me. I'll get the flush cleaner and green antifreeze and distilled water and go at sometime this week.

 

Ed, thanks for posting the photo of your engine bay. That was real helpful. I see that the bracket is anchored on the coil mounting bolt. I wonder if I bend the tab on my bracket would it fit there as well?

 

I also see in Ed's photos that the "heater box" has some cables/lever on it. I don't have that on mine. Is it missing on mine or so some have and some not? I do have a heater/defroster that's operational in the passenger compartment.

 

Let me take the liberty of asking for help on a couple of other items.

 

My mileage had been pretty poor (less than 10 mpg). I replaced the carb with a rebuilt unit and it seems to have improved (14 mpg or so). I adjusted the carb by ear and it seems to idle smoothly enough but I feel that it still may not be dialed in right. It was suggested I pick up a vacuum gauge to help set that air/fuel mixture. Any other tips to improve the mpg would be appreciated. Aside from the carb I also changed the plugs. The previous owner had replaced the distributor's points/condenser with electronic one.

 

Lastly, my fuel tank seems to be building pressure so that when I open the vented cap, there's a whoosh sound of escaping air. Assuming the cap is okay, could the vent tube be clogged? If so, any tips on how to check for that and/or fix it?

 

Again, thanks for any help.

 

 

[greg g]

Are you sure it is air blowing out, or air rushing in to fill the vacuum created when gas is pumped out???  There is no vent tube the cap should be vented.  Try relocating that air cleaner support to the head bolt just ahead of the spark plug loom.  14 to 17 seems to be normal with these engines.  If you are going to get a vacuum gauge, you can set the timing with it.  If you have vacuum wipers the gauge can be hooked to the fitting on the intake manifold, then with the idle speed set, the distributor is rotated to achieve the highest steady vacuum reading.  this will typically be a little to advanced, so take it for a spin with the dist just snugged and see if yo have any ping under acceleration or hill climbing.  If so back the dist off (counter clockwise) in small adjustments till the ping goes away.  this will time the ig for your actual engine conditions. And today's fuel cocktail can stand a bit more advance that the old factory setting.  Thei will probably show up as somewhere between 4 and 6 degrees BTDC when checked with a light.  You might also want to invest in a compression gauge.  The compression reading can tell you about internal wear in an engine, an engine with worn rings will be down on copression, therefore down on efficiency and as a result down on gas mileage.

[55 Fargo]

Good idea to flush the cooling system, even you do not have any problems.

 

I have been flushing my 38's cooling system every two weeks, with rain water.

 

Tap water here is not very good.     Ready for 50/50 now.     I read the premixed

 

50/50 antifreeze do not use distilled water, but filtered tap water.

 

There is an antifreeze company, "Evans", that does not use water at all, only

 

coolant....

If it is water run through a Reverse Osmosis filtration system, 98% of all minerals/metals is removed, and would be okay. 

[Young Ed]

There was more than 1 heater offered for 51-52. Mine is the higher end one. I have summer/winter on my control panel in the interior. Do you have a panel with 2 knobs and 2 slides or 4 knobs?

Edited August 20, 2013 by Young Ed

[Barabbas]

Yes, you should have a cable going to the heater box.  There is a lever on the top of the box which the cables pulls on, I believe the lever operates a flap which directs incoming air past the heater core on the "winter" setting.

 

As for the heater guage, my '52 Cranbrook runs normally on the low end of the line (about 1/16" of line showing ) and creeps up to the mid point when idling for extended periods in 80F weather-I have a 160 thermostat

[greg g]

I see a cable going to the water flow control valve near the rear of cylinder head.  This valve controls the amount of hot coolant going to the heater core.  The other would open and close the flap which admits air to the system either through or around the heater core.  a third would control the flow of heated air to the heat or defrost outlets in the car.

[Scruffy49]

That's entirely too complicated. The heater in my PH had a reostat to contol the blower speed, knobs to open/close the flaps by hand, and a manual shut off valve on the water pump top fitting. It's either getting hot water, or not. Needs a 12v blower motor or an inline voltage reducer and it will be good to go.

[Tones52]

Greg G, thanks for pointing out that cable. It's been hot enough in So. Cal to not need the heater and I only tried it once to see if it leaked. The sound from the fuel tank when I turn the gas cap was built up air rushing out from the tank. Maybe my vented gas cap isn't working as it should.

 

Young Ed, it's the 4 knob set up. I had a 50 Plymouth SD that had the 2 lever, 2 knob set up. I'll see if I can get one of the grandkids to pull the knobs while I observe what happens.

 

Barabbas, thanks for sharing your temp gauge info. When it's in the mid 80's or below it seems to be running just below the mid point line but when the outside temp is higher that's when I've noticed it creeps up. And point well taken about more regular flushing etc. of the cooling system. I'll be picking up the 160 thermostat.

 

Scruffy 49, thanks for the info on your set up. I'm blown away in learning more about the engineering that went into designing the systems in these cars and how forum members have adapted/improved them especially when parts aren't available.

 

Because the garage had been  converted to a family room when we bought the house and it has a short sloped driveway, I'm having to borrow garage space at my daughter's garage who fortunately lives across the street from us. So for the time being, any fixes have to be ones that can be handled in a day and with my limited wrenching experiences. I don't want to wear out my welcome over there.

[TodFitch]

Greg G, thanks for pointing out that cable. It's been hot enough in So. Cal to not need the heater and I only tried it once to see if it leaked. The sound from the fuel tank when I turn the gas cap was built up air rushing out from the tank. Maybe my vented gas cap isn't working as it should.

 

Should be no sound of air rushing in or out. Your gas cap vent is not working and it will affect fuel delivery.

[_shel_ny]

A 160 thermostat will probably not solve overheating problems unless your present thermostat is bad. It is just going to open sooner.

[Young Ed]

The 4 knob heater is a cheaper version of the 2 knob 2 lever system. I'm not sure what actually changes between the 2.

[Robert Horne]

If it is water run through a Reverse Osmosis filtration system, 98% of all minerals/metals is removed, and would be okay. 

This is true.           I am using filtered rain water to mix with my antifreeze.     

 

My house water filters do not do a good job of filtering.      I have to change or clean our shower heads very often,

 

because of the contaminates that build up....

[55 Fargo]

This is true.           I am using filtered rain water to mix with my antifreeze.     

 

My house water filters do not do a good job of filtering.      I have to change or clean our shower heads very often,

 

because of the contaminates that build up....

In the house what are you dealing with from your water source?

-high iron?

- general hardness?

-manganese?

-tannins?

If ferrous suspended iron, ( draws clear then turns yellow/orange after a while), this if levels are under 2-3 ppm, can easily be removed with a quality water softener, if higher levels, chemical free iron remover filter  works well.

If the water is irony when drawn, a quality good sized set of sediment filters,with a charcoal filter in-line can make a huge difference too, but will have no effect on hardness and some odors.

All the best

[greg g]

like most heater valves it is probably never truly closed.  A simple fix is to disconnect the hose at the other end, whittle a plug from a piece of wood and fasten the clamp around it, think finger in the dyke.  That will stop the flow going to the element and allow fresh air from infront of the grill to enter the passenger area without passing through a warmed heater core.

[deathbound]

Welcome to the forum from a So Cal neighbor. Very nice looking car.

[Tones52]

Thanks Deathbound. I'm in the East San Gabriel Valley. Hopefully I can get the 52 sorted out well enough to take that trip to the LBC, It is a great looking car. It has a few oil drips coming from underneath and at some point in the future I'll hopefully get that taken care of. But right now cardboard and drip pans will have to do. The gentleman I bought the 52 from is a Korean War vet who drove a similar Plymouth from NY to California's Bay area  when he returned from the service. He also drove Plymouth cabs back in the day. He's definitely the kind of person that Tom Brokow wrote about in his book, "The Greatest Generation" just like my mom.

 

TodFitch, I agree that there shouldn't be a whooshing sound coming from the tank but there is. This morning I bought a vented Stant gas cap and that pressure build up in the tank is still there. It may be more so when the tank is closer to empty. I put in gas to the 3/4 mark this afternoon. I Googled the issue and I found some info on other sites but for more modern cars that have more extensive emission systems. A Chevelle forum site had suggestion to drill a 1/8 inch hole in the gas cap. Now that I have two, I can do that but would like to hear some thoughts on that.

 

I'm flushing the cooling system now with the Prestone flush/cleaner. I also bought the kitchen thermometer. I hope this was the right one. At the end of the evening drive after pulling into the garage the gauge indicated 174 degrees and the Temp Gauge needle was just below the midpoint.  It's been hotter these past couple of days (mid 90's) so I'll drive around a bit more tomorrow and then go to flush, replace the thermostat and see if that improves things.

[Don Coatney]

I fully do not understand what would build pressure in a gas tank? What is the source of this pressure? The fuel pump pulls gas from the tank with a slight vacuum. When you remove your gas cap and hear the rush of air do you also get a strong gas smell? After driving several miles does your engine stumble and die?

[JerseyHarold]

I would check the fuel pump volume and pressure.  Maybe it's pumping too much fuel and creating an excessive negative pressure in the tank.  Does this car have the original mechanical fuel pump or has an electric one been fitted?

[Tones52]

Thanks Don & Jersey.  I noticed this the first time I went to put gas after getting the Plymouth at the 1/4 tank mark. Didn't think much of it at the time. There had been a strong gas smell which I attributed to the old carb that I swapped out last week with a rebuilt one Charlie (seller) provided me.

 

The 52 has the mechanical fuel pump.The smell of gas is quite strong when I do open the cap to relieve the built up air pressure. I did ask Charlie about it & he thought it may be the gas cap as well. He did tell me it's best not to fill the tank because of fuel expansion and the risk have fuel mess up the paint for me. He's going through a bit of a health challenge right now so I don't want to bug him about the car, I'd rather keep it about him when we talk.

 

My driving of the Plymouth has been very local (20 miles round trip), to church, stores, park etc. & mostly level ground. It starts up all the time (thanks to that 6 volt Optima). Maybe a slight hesitation on "hard" acceleration but otherwise it's drives OK as long as 2nd gear is engaged with love & affection.

 

I'm able to get under the car enough to feel for any leaks but I'm not seeing anything (except the oil drops from seals). The only time it's been on the lift was to have the muffler replaced in July. Until I start getting some tools (hydraulic jack, stands, vac gauge etc.) I know I'm limited. 

 

I checked the gas cap this morning (high 60's outside) and nothing, all seemed fine. The tank is 3/4's full at this time. I'll  monitor this over the next few days. Again, thanks for the time & thought given to this.

[_shel_ny]

If you bought a Stant 10623 it is vented to allow air to enter the tank so that you do not have fuel starvation as you drive.

 

It is not vented to allow for any pressure from fuel expansion to be released.

 

My car(with a 10623) is sitting in the sun. I popped the cap, nothing. My tank may not be air tight

[busycoupe]

You can use an infrared thermometer of the type sold by Harbor Freight to spot read temperatures on the block, thermostat housing, hose, top and bottom of the radiator.  That way you determine if there are any hot or cool spots that would indicate poor flow in the cooling system.  I have a thermometer like the one listed below and it is fast, accurate, and safe (because you don't have to touch the hot engine or get your hand near the fan)

Dave

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-contact-69465.html