Engine Swap (?)

[THRobinson]

Still fiddling with my engine, not worried yet or anything, but... curious.

 

Being such an older car, are there any easy/direct swaps with current (1990 and up) engines? Or would anything/everything need custom motor mounts and possibly firewall modifications?

 

Just on the off-chance the engine is deceased, or, if eventually I decide it's not powerful enough. I'm not expecting a lot of power from an older car but, like to research my options ahead of time.

[james curl]

About modern power, almost any of the modern V6 engines will fit within the confines of the opening left after removing the old components, that said it would require all new mounts plus all of the management systems that the modern engines require it run.  Your best bet for semi modern would be a late 60s or early 70s MoPar small block or the much hated SBC.  Either would have to be shifted over about 2" to the passengers side of the engine compartment if using the original steering box.  This still causes you to make new mounts, a new steering column with different shifting arms if using a modern three speed transmission or a floor shift if using a four speed or a five speed transmission.  And the list goes on and on for the items that will have to be changed or modified.  My suggestion is if you are not an experienced fabricator and problem solver you need to find a good hot rod shop to do the job for you, it will be expensive.   Remember it is a MoPar product and if sedan and four door do not expect to ever recover your expenditures.  Modified MoPar cars from the late 30s through the 50s only bring about half to two thirds what a Ford or Chevy of that time frame will bring.  You will be better off rebuilding what you have and enjoying the ride, even then expect to spend $1500.00 to $2500.00 total on the rebuild.

[Andydodge]

As a general guide there are no swaps that just bolt in.........apart from engine/gearbox mounts you have to consider rear axles, brakes etc....also the wiring should be looked into, conversion to 12volts and the suitability of the new and old components............then of course there is the firewall/steering column to consider, etc, etc,etc..........your best bet from the sound of it is to decide what you actually want, ie, a stocker or a slightly modified one or a hotrod......no problems either way, I am a hotrodder, my 1940 Dodge has had a 318/auto,4wheel discs, rack & pinion steering, etc since 1973............but I taught myself to do it and made a few mistakes along the way........it all comes down to how badly you want various things to be.......the original engine can be hot-rodded and you can get areasonable output if you put your mind to it but its never gunna hunt down a 2013 Corvette............lol.......checkout shows, rod runs, etc to get ideas....read all you can, ask questions.......after 40odd yrs I still learb new things every day........btw welcome to the best mopar forum around.........regards, andyd

[pflaming]

These old vehicles run very nicely in at straight line because they are heavy, but in addition to the comments above, these cars were not designed for 70 + but will do it, and were not designed to corner. So a quick engine has it  limitations on the road.  

 

I'm a flathead fan so I'm prejudiced.

[THRobinson]

Remember it is a MoPar product and if sedan and four door do not expect to ever recover your expenditures.  Modified MoPar cars from the late 30s through the 50s only bring about half to two thirds what a Ford or Chevy of that time frame will bring.  You will be better off rebuilding what you have and enjoying the ride, even then expect to spend $1500.00 to $2500.00 total on the rebuild.

 

I bought this maybe 10yrs ago, sadly been cocooned ever since. I know more now than I did when I started having worked on my daily driver and such... but... first thing I learned after having bought this car is that nobody seems to like old Dodge's.

 

We have a big car show here every year, I think 2nd largest outdoor classic car show in Canada... and I've been 6x and only ever once have I seen a '40s Dodge sedan or coupe. Seems like Dodge (as far as car shows and part manufactures go) Dodge doesn't exist until the muscle cars came out. 

 

If I had the tools, I had a link (somewhere in my long list of Dodge bookmarks) where someone showed a step-by-step removing a pre'80s front clip off a Camaro which apparent matches up perfectly. But, then I'd be killing a Camaro, which up here aren't cheap to begin with.

 

LINK

 

Basically, just weighing the options, in case I spend a lot of time/energy getting this to run, only to have the engine crap out in 6 months. A newer engine could as well, but, easier to swap/fix. Good ol' paranoia.

Edited August 1, 2013 by THRobinson

[Plymouthy Adams]

there are more clips out there than the assumed GM unit...the GM clip is a cobble compared to a few others..

 

with all that aside though, you hve the option of just doing some basic upgrades to your stock chassis as the suspension design is still in use today.  The relocation of front shocks, additions of disc brakes, you can make the move to R&P steering add on either in manual or power assist...the engine bay is adequate for a V8 of almost any choosing with some from rad mods and if you really up to it a massage of the firewall for added length. 

 

The use of later model V6 is preferable and I have done three of these installs with donor clip and modified mounts as you will still need to move the engine rearward to the firewall as modern donors are cab forward design...without the clip it is just a matter of align and set the engine and I do recommend a offset and the matching rear axle also at an offset but..offset axle is not mandantory if you properly phase your driveline..one of my builds have followed the original chassis upgrade..it is less invasive and requires less body mods to support the engine install..most all will be a one way trip will little chance to return to stock..if that is something that is important to you..carefully remove the original rear  mount cross member for reuse if you change your mind..

 

As an added note..get the entire donor vehicle...the wiring harness is essential for the upgrade..plus there are tons of other stuff that will be available to use also

Edited August 1, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[mrwrstory]

All of the advise above applies,.... although I think James' assessment of $1500.00 - $2500.00 for a rebuild is a bit light.  It all comes back to you, what you want, your skills and what you're willing to learn.  Do your best to realistically estimate the cost and then "double it"!

Not to throw cold water on your dream, just be aware of the scope of the project you choose.  Make the hard decisions up front and stick with the plan.  It's not rocket science.  It's very rewarding.  This is a great group for help and encouragement.  And, you'll be making new friends and learning something in the process.

Good luck and keep us informed.

[THRobinson]

My 'dream' is simply to drive this thing before I die.

 

... hopefully a simple and attainable dream. 

 

I do however like to research all the variables, and plan 2 steps ahead before I do anything, which is why asking about the swapping. I'm about to order in a few parts before attempting to fire the engine up, but before spending money, I like to check options out in case I'm spending on the wrong thing. 

 

Be nothing worse than spending all that money/time to have someone walk up and say, "by the way, you know that engine X fits right in and is a way better engine"...

 

Next question I suppose, and not sure if should start a new thread or not... any advice on starting it?

 

Sounds dumb but, gas tank is shot... lots of small pin holes. I don't have a 6v battery but, I do have a charger/jumper that has a 6v/12v switch. Key has also gone missing. I see on TV shows they spray some carb cleaner into the carb direct to start it... do I basically do that and hook up the starter to the jumper/charger unit?

[Plymouthy Adams]

just an example of the offset drivetrain as I installed in my 48 Bz Cp...you will note that I widened the tunnel 3 inches toward the passengers side...

[THRobinson]

Nice... amazing how much room modern stuff takes up. With the inline 6 I have now, I think I can fit a small family under the hood.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Nice... amazing how much room modern stuff takes up. With the inline 6 I have now, I think I can fit a small family under the hood.

yes the inline is a very narrow block and has no real bolt on driven accessories outside the lone generator..this was the reason I included the engine bay shot..though the V6 is small, compact in size they are really not, still a big foot print due to serpentine mount for all the accessories it drives and I did utilize all these accessories in the build.  The inner fenders require quite a bit of modification to do their job and yet contour to the shape of the new power plant...

 

I did not mention this earlier but a build of this nature requires not only tools and some fabrication skill it take plenty of room for laydown and actually doing the work involved.  It's a in depth job but very rewarding one in the end..would never talk a man out of the idea to upgrade any more than try to talk the man into doing it..I only post this stuff to say it is usually a one way street when started and failure should not be an option...think about it long and hard before making that cut..

[P15-D24]

To PA's point, eBay is strewn with the rusting hulks of similar projects that overwhelmed their owners skill and finances...

[THRobinson]

Ya, been factoring that in as well... old engine may cost a lot in terms of finding parts and such, but same same time, swap means finding the space and cost of tools/rental.

 

But... I hate taking the first option and running with it without hearing about all the other options available first.

 

I think, since the engine I have (from the outside anyways) looks good and intact so, will focus for now on getting the parts back on, spark plugs (since one is well, snapped off at the top for whatever reason), drain the oil, new oil and filter etc... my goal is this year, if the engine doesn't start, the car gets sold. I like the car so it better start.

 

But like I said, few parts (ie gas tank) won't be hooked up because of corrosion so, gotta find a how-to for firing it up without setting it on fire.

[THRobinson]

To PA's point, eBay is strewn with the rusting hulks of similar projects that overwhelmed their owners shill and finances...

 

Upside is, they sometime's part those out. I need new seats... mine were chucked without knowing that as damaged as they were they could have been saved. :S

 

I will eBay'ing some of my stuff off... front grill, and 90% of the dash.

[Plymouthy Adams]

by reading it appears you have thrown in the towel already...bring an old car back to life is very involved at times and need not run a lot of money unless you just in a hurry to get it done. 

 

any small gravity type gas tank will sit on the fender and feed the fuel pump so an intact original tank is really not needed just to hear it run. 

[pflaming]

When I started this hobby, my experience with an automobile was to change the oil and tires. With the help of  forum members I rebuilt the engine, rewired the body, replaced the rear axle, put disc brakes on the front, replaced the old master cylinder for a dual chamber one, replaced all the brake lines, and wet sanded the exterior. BUT I did NOT put anything on that required a welder or a torch, it had to bolt onto what Detroit designed. 

 

If one thing is modified, that will automatically impact more items than one can image. I wish you the best.  

 

Final shot: SERVICE MANUAL get one! Why? Everything you need to know is in there. The kicker is that if you and the person you are working  with are working out a problem, if both are opened to the same page, then the terms the southern gentlemen use and the ones us in Calilfornia use are MUST comply to the book and that solves a lot of miscommunication. STUDY the manual in the evening, make notes and take those notes with you in the morning to confirm what you have learned or at least how much you really understood.

Edited August 1, 2013 by pflaming

[james curl]

The price I was quoting was just to rebuild the engine with relined clutch disc, rebuilt pressure plate, ground flywheel, rebuilt harmonic balancer,  That is about what I have in mine.  I had $750.00 in machine work which included surfacing every mating surface on the block, line bored the mains new cam bearings, bored .040 over new valve guides installed, valve seats surfaced to fit new valves and lapped in.  The rods straightened if required and re-sized with new piston pin bushings sized for the respective pin.  I had the cam reground by Egge Machine for max lift and more torque.  Had .100 milled from the head.  New parts ran almost $900.00 from Terrell Machine then I cleaned the block with hot soapy water until a white towel could dry each cylinder with out getting dirty before reassembling and reinstalling the engine and front clip.  Just removing the front clip and engine, then doing a good rebuild of the engine and reinstalling the engine and front clip then realigning the hood would discourage a lot of people who have no idea of how much work is required just to do the job right.  i am not trying to discourage THRobinson but give him some idea of what he is in for if he decides to rebuild the engine in his car.  To do a complete change over to V 8 power will require more money and time than rebuilding the I/6 that is in the car.  I am just trying to give him a realistic idea of the cost to do so.  A lot of people will tell you that you can rebuild your engine a lot cheaper than what I quoted but to them re-ringing the pistons after removing the ridge with a cutter, a light honing and new rod and main bearings is a rebuild.  I used a new water pump, a new oil pump a re-man starter and generator.  I also drove my car after rebuilding the engine to Hot August Nights in Reno then onto  the Grass Valley area of Calif to visit friends then on to Bonneville for speed week in 2007.  I turned 71 on the salt at Bonneville.  In all 4800 miles from central Texas to Bonneville with side trips and back home without  any problems during the trip.  We drove anywhere from 65 mph to 80 mph for long stretches of time across Nevada, Utah, and Texas, not so fast in Colorado except[t on the interstate.  To say I drive it like I stole it is probably true.

Edited August 1, 2013 by james curl

[greg g]

My numbers wee similar to what James noted, 10 years ago.  I reused accessories by chosig the best of the 2 engines I had. Plus I added an aftermarket dual intake and carbs. I have added about 30K miles to my engine with no issues.  Still has good power, great oil pressure, hardly ever runs above 170 degrees, and gets close to 20 MPG.

[Don Coatney]

No matter what direction you go the line in the sand will always keep moving and stay ahead of you.

[Andydodge]

Unless you have a well equipped workshop and possess good fabrication skills I would not recommend a front clip swap or similar, there is far better bang for your buck in updating the original engine, disc brakes, diff, etc. As much as they are frowned upon a SBC or 318 Mopar V8 will fit, you just need to have the skills and ability to do it.....lol......but from the sound of it you maybe better off just updating the original 6, put a T5 and late diff, disc brakes and you'll still have an old car but one that have been selectively updated........but research,read, look around........what Don Coatney on this forum has done with his P15 is the PERFECT example, an old car with the modern updates........regards, andyd

[pflaming]

Shop around, don't get in a hurry to buy stuff. I just bought a 54 Suburban for VERY little. Lacks an engine and tranny, so before I closed the deal I told him the sans engine and tranny cooled my thinking. He put me on to a friend of his who has a running engine and tranny,  I called him, he wanted $100 but it has to be pulled from his car, so "how much if I help?" We settttled on $50. "oh, my neighbor has 53 Plymouth convertible he wants to sell","really, said I? What is the condition? Driver or roller?". "He drove it into the garage where It's now stored" he replied. 

 

So on Saturday next, I'm going to pull that engine and take a look at that vert !  

 

Point is: Don't get in a hurry,  find what you need BEFORE you need it. I sure wish I had a bigger garage!

Edited August 1, 2013 by pflaming

[DJ194950]

Shop around, don't get in a hurry to buy stuff. I just bought a 54 Suburban for VERY little. Lacks an engine and tranny, so before I closed the deal I told him the sans engine and tranny cooled my thinking. He put me on to a friend of his who has a running engine and tranny,  I called him, he wanted $100 but it has to be pulled from his car, so "how much if I help?" We settttled on $50. "oh, my neighbor has 53 Plymouth convertible he wants to sell","really, said I? What is the condition? Driver or roller?". "He drove it into the garage where It's now stored" he replied. 

 

So on Saturday next, I'm going to pull that engine and take a look at that vert !  

 

Point is: Don't get in a hurry,  find what you need BEFORE you need it. I sure wish I had a bigger garage!

 

Paul, it's time to start looking for a new place to live- Some acreage with a Big garage, maybe enen a house 4 for the wife to cook and make your bed for ya!! 

 

Doug

[THRobinson]

by reading it appears you have thrown in the towel already...

 

Which part were you reading?

 

As mentioned a few times...I'm simply researching all angles before I start. I don't want to start in one direction and find out later I shoulda zigged when I zagged.

Edited August 2, 2013 by THRobinson

[THRobinson]

 

Point is: Don't get in a hurry,  find what you need BEFORE you need it. I sure wish I had a bigger garage!

 

Oh don't worry... I'm cheap!

 

Between jobs right now so, have the time to work on it. Big ticket items are on the back burner until under the hood is sorted out. Few parts need cleaned and put back where they came (some stuff was under the hood, some in the trunk) and one of the spark plugs snapped at the top. So, basically going to grab new plugs (now that I know what I need) an oil filter, drain the oil and put new oil in, hook the starter back up which hopefully works... will test before I bolt it on again. Um... about it really... mostly just cleaning and piecing together and hoping I find all the bolts.

 

Previous owner had it in a barn for 25yrs, I've had it in a cocoon for 10yrs... looks like he started to dismantle it and gave up. Starter, few odds'n'ends under the hood, the drive shaft for some reason and the radiator are all in the trunk. I know where I can get the shop manual from, looks like its been reprinted and have a PDF option which is better since can print a few copies off if needed. Someone on here mentioned getting a parts manual, for stuff like bolt sizes/types since I would like to replace some, especially visible ones, and well, some parts may not have the bolts at all.

 

anyone know where a parts manual is?

[Plymouthy Adams]

Which part were you reading?

 

As mentioned a few times...I'm simply researching all angles before I start. I don't want to start in one direction and find out later I shoulda zigged when I zagged.

this part from your earlier post..........I will eBay'ing some of my stuff off... front grill, and 90% of the dash.