Frame questions

[55dodgec3]

I have my 55 down to the frame. I plan on installing IFS, a small block with about 300-400 hp, torqflite, different rear, and AC.  I know some of you lads in here have put in small blocks, my questions are....

What modifications did u do to beef up the frame, if any?   I dont think these frames are strong enuff stock to handle that kinda torque, not saying Im going to be jumping on it alot, but once in awhile I will.

Your thoughts and suggestions??????  Thanks!

[Apittslife]

Hello,

 

 I am going to say, that if you are going to have an engine in the higher HP range you stated, I would box the frame & think about fabricating a tubular X-brace to limit frame twist.

 

Here is a build thread that I have been following on H.A.M.B. I believe many here may have seen this Pilothouse prior to this rebuild or are following it as I am.

 

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=520334

[Dave72dt]

Most IFS setups will require boxing a portion of the frame rails for mounting purposes.  I boxed mine all the way to the crossmember just in front of the rear axle and welded the boxing plates to it as well.  The IFS crossmember itself stiffens the frame quite a bit, just as the old cast iron bellhousing used to.  The factory crossmember  under the cab was removed ( didn't clear the trans) and a new crossmember with a drop-out trans mount  was put in about 6 inches forward of the old one.  The crossmembers ended up being more equally spaced as well.  Dimensionally, there's a lot of steel in the frame and when fully boxed, quite strong. 

 

You're going to want to do a thorough frame inspection before you start boxing including checking for frame straightness and cracks.

[55dodgec3]

Apittslive, thanks for the link, I will have to study that when I have some time to sit still. Since I got the blaster, my wife keeps finding projects to blast and paint!

Dave, the frame is down to the suspension and axles, I kept them on for now soo I can move it outside to blast. The wife and I measured the frame last weekend, and found it to be in specs. I have the dodge manual and followed their meausurements. The front is off 3/16", dodge gives you a 1/4", the rear is dead on. That 3/16" could be some human error, the eyes ain't what they used to be!

So far, I did find cracks in the radiator xmember, and have repaired them, I will look the frame over REAL GOOD after it is all blasted.

This truck had a rough life and I believe it sat a good many years before I got it. Prevoius owners did some really bad work attempting to put in a 273, and pushbutton auto.

[Dave72dt]

Outy of curiosity, have you done a front suspension and engine swap before?  If you haven't, there are a couple of things that should be taken into account as you do the conversion.  If you're an old hand at this, there's no need to mention them.

[55dodgec3]

Dave,

I've done engine swaps before...I even put a 318 in a dodge Colt.  Never did suspension swaps, Mention whatever u want...I'm never too old to learn from others!!!!

 

I've been a mechanic and or bodyman all my life, and still learn something new every day.

[Dave72dt]

One of the most important steps is to set the frame at ride height first, front and rear.  Level side to side is a given.  Front and rear height can be changed  or left as is, your choice.  To get the geometry of any front  suspension to work properly it needs to be installed  at the height the vehicle will be driven at.  Tire height needs to be taken into account especially if different size tires are used on the front than on the rear.

[55dodgec3]

Thanks Dave...Anything else I should know?

[Dave72dt]

That's the big one that doesn't get mentioned on many of the swaps I've seen threads on.  Maybe it's common knowledge and it's done automatically.  If you end up with a M II setup, most will come with pretty decent instructions.  When they say read all the instructions and understand them before starting, it's for good reason.  Lay the pieces out alonside your truck so you can visually relate to their orientation before you start trimming and welding.  Tack all the pieces in place before fully welding them in and leave any overhead welds alone if you can.  I prefer to flip the frame over for those.  Double check part placement after tacking to be sure they didn't move.

 

Volare clips and Crown Vics won't come with directions so some careful measurements will need to be taken before they're removed from the donor.

 

Your truck I believe has a frame that narrows in and then widens back out for the front suspension.  Fatmans Fab has an IFS for that model thats good and there may be others as well.

[Spencer Harless]

   Stock B1D frame, engine 1956 S23 Desoto rated 305 fl/lbs @ 2800 RPM bolted to flat six frame mount locations, ran 1 ton 4 speed. Driven 8 year before deciding to clip the frame.   Same engine, Chevy ton clip

[55dodgec3]

Fatman, Helix, and one othe place make IFS kits for it. I got the frame blasted 3/4's of the way, what a nightmare of a job! Just gotta finish the back of the frame, then epoxy primer. I only found one crack so far, and that is in the bracket that holds the rear pin for the left front spring. I won't be using that soo, no problem.

Spencer, after 8 years, did the frame hold up to that early hemi?  Any cracking, bending, etc?

[48Dodger]

I wanted to try something different on mine back in 2009. I put in a 85 Dodge Diplomat IFS, and a 97 Ford Thunderbird IRS. I've done this conversion more than once....why? Cause its a nice ride. lol.  Frame is completely boxed. Added pictures of my down and dirty way of making boxing plates. C-clamp it, tack it, plasma cut it, snap it, grind it, and then set it aside for final weld after blasting.

 

48D   

 

The front end story is in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2013 by 48dodger

[Frank Elder]

Tim, one thing that has been rattling around in my gourd for awhile is could a d24 or chrysler front stub be adapted to these trucks.....track width is around 57 inches....too narrow?

It would sure make a smooth ride out of a bumpy one.

[Apittslife]

If you are thinking of doing a front clip, The Dodge Dakota is some thing to consider.

[48Dodger]

Ya....I believe the Dakota frame is a good choice.

I have a 92 frame ready to go for my 48 Panel.

What I'd like to do is throw in a 2006 Hemi with with seats etc. 

 

As far as the car frame swap....I have nooo idea. lol. Never worked on a D24.

 

48D

[1952B3b23]

"48dodger" I like the way you go about boxing the frame thats a great idea. I need to do the same and those pics gave me some really good ideas... thanks. The engine stands that you have the frame on are those the 1000 lb ones from harbor freight? If so how do you like them, cause theyre on sale right now for $45 and id like to use that method for spinning the frame for easy welding. One more question, what thickness steel did you use to box it? Im thinking of using 3/16" for my frame.

 

Thanks,

 

-Chris  

Edited February 5, 2013 by 1952B3b23

[Apittslife]

Chris,

 

 1/8 plate is thick enough, but 3/16 wouldn't hurt.

[48Dodger]

To let my my frame "breathe"....I used 12 gauge in the center and 14 gauge on the ends. The bracing square tubes are 14 gauge. This was my plan for a complete boxed frame. If I was only boxing key areas, I would use 10 or 11 gauge.

 

  7 gauge = 3/16 or 0.187

11 gauge = 1/8 or 0.125 (this is what 48-53 frames are)

12 gauge = 7/64 or 0.109

14 gauge =  5/64 or 0.781

 

48D

[Dave72dt]

I used 1/8 " flat stock when I did my boxing.  If I remember correctly a common width matches up really well with the stock frame width.  I do remember beveling the edges to get a full penetrating weld.

[ggdad1951]

To let my my frame "breathe"....I used 12 gauge in the center and 14 gauge on the ends. The bracing square tubes are 14 gauge. This was my plan for a complete boxed frame. If I was only boxing key areas, I would use 10 or 11 gauge.

 

  7 gauge = 3/16 or 0.187

11 gauge = 1/8 or 0.125 (this is what 48-53 frames are)

12 gauge = 7/64 or 0.109

14 gauge =  5/64 or 0.781

 

48D

I've always found the "gauge" measurment for metals and wire interesting...no OBVIOUS correlation between the two...I just remember .060 is 16 gauge and go from there.

[Apittslife]

I got this information from a build thread over on H.A.M.B.

It shows how close the Dakota frame is to the pilothouse. in my opinion very workable.

 

 

Latest update (Truck): I got the 88 Dakota completely disassembled this last weekend but left the suspension on the frame (as well as the box). I got the 52 up on the lift to take some measurements before I begin disassembling it. For those who care; here are some measurements which I tried to find online but couldnt, they are for a 52 B3B and based on my eyesight, so any variance is unintentional;

rear end width (face to face) = 62.25"
leaf spring center to center = 44.25"
front end width (face to face) = 58.75"
frame width at the front (inside to inside)= 26.5"
frame width over front axle (outside to outside) = 31"
frame width over front axle (inside to inside) = 27"
frame width at rear of the engine (outside to outside) = 35"
frame width at rear of the engine (inside to inside) = 29.5"

88 Dakota frame
rear end width (face to face) = 63"
leaf spring center to center = 56.75"
front end width (face to face) = 58.75"
frame width at the front (inside to inside)= 30.75"
frame width over front axle (outside to outside) = 35"
frame width over front axle (inside to inside) = 27 1/8"
frame width at rear of the engine (outside to outside) = 37.5"
frame width at rear of the engine (inside to inside) = 29.75"
 

[55dodgec3]

Well, I got the frame completely blasted, what a nightmare!  So far, I don't see any cracks. One thing I did see now that its clean, is at the rear of the rear springs.  The cast brackets riveted to the frame that the U shaped shackles go into are worn BAD! The shackles have worn thru these brackets, and the previous owners welded the brackets. I'll have to drill out the rivets and try to find replacements.  I'll get it primed tomorrow, I have a 51 ford f100 in the shop now to get the wiring straightened out. I work on my dodge inbetween customer work.  Thanks for the pictures and info guys!

 

On those harbor freight engine stands, I have one. Its alrite, but i think they could be built better. I have a 273 short block on it now, with a complete engine on it, it spins way too hard. When I get another stand, I'll look at others first, just my thoughts

[TodFitch]

Well, I got the frame completely blasted, what a nightmare!  . . ..  The cast brackets riveted to the frame that the U shaped shackles go into are worn BAD! The shackles have worn thru these brackets, and the previous owners welded the brackets. I'll have to drill out the rivets and try to find replacements.  . . .

 

So they let it get so bad that they wore through the bushings into the bracket? Wow! Talk about bad maintenance.

[Young Ed]

So they let it get so bad that they wore through the bushings into the bracket? Wow! Talk about bad maintenance.

 

I've seen multiple trucks that had this happen to them. Some where the shackle was starting to come out the top of the bracket! One of my parts trucks had a length of chain welded around the frame and spring hanger to keep it in place.

[52b3b Joe]

My front shackle mounts were wore out, on the drivers side it was worn all the way through the mount only holding by rust. I'm surprised it didn't go through. Those rivets were horrible to get out, and took me a while. I made new mounts (have many hours in them). A cool project, but I'm happy that's over.