Brake lines / bleeding, etc. Chronology

[pflaming]

First, as noted under "tools" I made patterns by putting a twisted strand of soft wire pushed into a pneumatic hose. Makes it very easy to make a pattern, if you do not have one or want to reroute.

Second: I noticed that as the rear brake lines get nearer the drums, they get smaller. Is that to increase the pressure, to activate the rear brakes just slightly ahead of the front brakes?

Third, the lines on the rear axles, both the Dodge and the Wrangler have a spring, wrapped around them. Added protection from flying debri I would guess.

Fourth: That MC is placed in there with very little room to spare, sortof like the starter but not so bad.

I've delayed the final brake job but now "delay is not an option"

Edited May 26, 2012 by pflaming

[pflaming]

Master cylinder preparation: It is no easy task to get the rubber boot on, the small end is the most difficult. A motorcyle tire iron was very helpful.

I made a set up to prime my MC. Will start pumping fluid tomorrow, then back on the concrete.

Edited December 26, 2017 by pflaming

[pflaming]

When I pump the MC I can see the small openings working, letting 'air' escape but that is not how it works, there is to be NO AIR. It would not prime until I put my finger on the end of the hose and let the cylinder pump the air past my finger but on the return stroke I kept the hose sealed. Like Don or Greybeard stated, it only took about four pumps and I had a FULL stream of fluid.

Now to put the top on and carefully install so I do not get a lot of oil in my face. The MC is basically a pump. It puts pressure on the fluid which activates the wheel cylinders.

[pflaming]

As stated earlier, I ran a double strand of light wire into a 1/4" pneumatic tubing in order to form new tubes. With a long distance it is very difficult to push that braid that far, so I ran a single wire in, then pulled the strand in. It pulled in like it has vaseline on it.

[pflaming]

I hated doing the brake lines, but it's not that hard. But RECHECK your pattern, it can deform when removing and then. . . trouble. It's a tricky job because the bends are not true 90 degrees and you are bending up and down and sideways. My first line was not pretty. This tool is nice, to some extent, it lets you work the line as you go. AND the tubing is NOT expensive. My source has it in 10' lengths with the nuts on and the ends flared.

Edited December 26, 2017 by pflaming

[pflaming]

Well, after doing the fuel and the MC line, I took a look at what remained. (1) an 8' line to the back, (2) an 18" line to the driver's side front wheel and (3) a 12' line up and under the radiator to the passenger side wheel.

Several observations: (1) Do this when the bed and dog house are off and it's not a bad job. It's like having sex 'missionary' style, everything is in front of you, BUT now it's all up and away. (2) breaking loose those 50 year flange nuts is tough, (3) I thought my lines were good, but on the long one to the rear axle about six inches of it must have laid down on the frame got covered with mud and was not pretty; one connection at the brake drum snapped when I took it off, so it must have been very close to gone. (4) a tubing forming spring makes forming the 1/4" line easy. The 5/16 th line really needs a nice bender.

It's really not nearly as difficult as I envisioned it. Will install and bleed tomorrow so that challenge remains.

Edited December 26, 2017 by pflaming

[Frank Elder]

Well, after doing the fuel and the MC line, I took a look at what remained. (1) an 8' line to the back, (2) an 18" line to the driver's side front wheel and (3) a 12' line up and under the radiator to the passenger side wheel.

Several observations: (1) Do this when the bed and dog house are off and it's not a bad job. It's like having sex 'missionary' style, everything is in front of you, BUT now it's all up and away. (2) breaking loose those 50 year flange nuts is tough, (3) I thought my lines were good, but on the long one to the rear axle about six inches of it must have laid down on the frame got covered with mud and was not pretty; one connection at the brake drum snapped when I took it off, so it must have been very close to gone. (4) a tubing forming spring makes forming the 1/4" line easy. The 5/16 th line really needs a nice bender.

It's really not nearly as difficult as I envisioned it. Will install and bleed tomorrow so that challenge remains.

I told you a new skill would perk you up! By the way I smashed my left index finger in the freight elevator door 2 days ago..........that rubber seal between the door edges isn't as soft as it looks:eek:

Anyway this is for you and Hank:DNote the slight discoloration at the tip of the nail, I had ust grown that one back after an incident with a dead blow mallet. Edit it still looks pretty purple.

[HanksB3B]

Ouch that must have hurt! Hope it gets better sooner than later. It's doesn't look half as bad as Pauls leprosy though.

and Now for somerthing different:

My favorite elevator joke to cheer you up (true story)

"It was lunchtime in an upscale Park Avenue Manhattan office building. Seven men including myself waited on the 36th floor for the elevator to take us down to the ground floor for lunch. The elevator arrived and when the doors opened a faint gasp could be heard eminating from each of us as we all stared for a brief moment at the most gorgeous brunette imaginable.

We piled into the elevator but soon fell silent keeping our thoughts to ourselves. When the elevator stopped at the 15th floor and she got off, all seven men unknown to each other blurted out at the same exact time... "She farted".

It was a moment in time,

Hank

Edited June 3, 2012 by HanksB3B

[pflaming]

Better to get it caught in the elevator door than in the "cookie cutter"! 30 daze and counting. Oh, the price we pay in order to drive down the road at 50 mph, w/0 AC, stereo, heated seats, PS, PB, anti-lock, etc.

[pflaming]

I plugged the ports to the front brakes and bled the rear. I have not checked them for proper adjustment, just used them as I got them. They are the wrangler/cherokee axle. I have a good half pedal of pressure and no leakage. BUT the rears will hold but will not STOP the truck. I will now pull the drums and check the cylinders and adjust them and then test again.

Doing this will tell me how much the rears are working. This may be unorthodox but. . . Question: What approximate percentage of brakeage comes from the rear? 40%, since the inertia goes to the front axle and off the rear, the front has to take the greater load. Is that a fair observation?

Any observations or suggestions, all are appreciated.

[Merle Coggins]

In our motorcycle training we teach that 70% or more of your braking power is on the front wheel. I suspect that's pretty close with out trucks too, although you should be able to stop it with the rear brakes only, as long as you're not trying to stop quickly from 60 MPH.

Merle

[ggdad1951]

my gearhead buddy and I agree with Merle....70% up front, 30% in the rears.

[Young Ed]

Isn't it somewhat dependant on how the brakes are plumbed and the weight distribution of the vehicle?

[pflaming]

Wow, only about 30% +/-! Then the rear brakes probably contribute more to straight stopping then to stopping at all. When we lived in the mid-west I always tried to slow by shifting down even with an automatic. That reduced the chance of spinning. Well I'm still going to set and adjust the back before I bleed the front.

Question: What would happen if discs were on the back and stock on the front, would the result be about the same because of the weight of the engine, etc?

[Dave72dt]

You'd get about the same results as the drift racers do, tail end trying to get through a corner first.

[TodFitch]

You'd get about the same results as the drift racers do, tail end trying to get through a corner first.

Yes.

And that was one of the things that surprised people back in the 1920s when four wheel brakes were introduced. It turns out that a panic stop with only two wheel rear brakes causes the car to spin around. Having most of the braking up front fixes that. Counter intuitive and the manufacturers who were early with four wheel brakes had to convince people that it was true. Took a number of years for that message to get through.

[pflaming]

When a kid, we slid the back wheel on the bicycle to go sideways. I always thought that was because we turned the handlebars, that helped, but that was not all that was at work. Possiby the same thing that happens when a semi's trailer wheels lock up in icy weather. Always things to learn, this is a great retirement hobby. Found it by chance, kept it by choice.

[pflaming]

I now have the front rotors on correctly. I had the wrong inner bearings. My truck has stock 16" wheels. Inside rear axle wheel rim to inside rear axle rim is 54". Inside front rim to rim is 55 1/2". The bumper and the bed floor are level to the floor at 29 1/2 " and 25 1/2" respectively. I removed the 2nd from the bottom leaf on all springs.

Question: Is that 1 1/2" difference of any significance?

[pflaming]

I picked up a pair of calipers for Charlie's kit. I got a pair of: calipers, very good pads, hoses, and the four bolts for $40 from a salvage yard that causually looks for older cars. These are the parts listed in Charlie's list. So tomorrow before it gets hot, these will go on. I have been able to get quality parts for much less at this yard, which really helps.

Running above 105 in the afternoons, nice in the garage until about 1:00 p.m.

[Don Coatney]

I picked up a pair of calipers for Charlie's kit. I got a pair of: calipers, very good pads, hoses, and the four bolts for $40 from a salvage yard that causually looks for older cars. These are the parts listed in Charlie's list. So tomorrow before it gets hot, these will go on. I have been able to get quality parts for much less at this yard, which really helps.

Running above 105 in the afternoons, nice in the garage until about 1:00 p.m.

Do you think it is a good idea to buy junk yard parts for something as important as brakes? Personally I would not use junk yard calipers, hoses, brake pads, seals, etc. New stuff is available for a reasonable cost. I trust the new wear part stuff (even if some is China made) more than the unknown junk yard stuff. Just my opinion. Rotors and bearings can be checked and serviced if required but the other stuff cannot.

[pflaming]

Don, I fully agree with you. I checked out the rotors first, checked the amont of wear, none, steam cleaned them then put new bearings in. Calipers the same, came from a 35,000 mile car. I will use new hoses. The brake pads have less than 1/4 wear, but I may replace them.

Rotors and calipers are basically cast pieces so I figure not much to go wrong. I did replace all brake lines. That was not nearly as difficult as I imagined, did the fuel line then also.

With a little luck I will have the brakes working this morning, then I will slip over to the cemetary, about three blocks, on the edge of town for some testing.

Hot out here just now, but it is to break tomorrow and go down into the low 90's. We have a desert climate, cool in the morning then a 30 - 35 degree warmup which peaks around 5:00 p.m.

Don, I always value your input, thank you and hope to meet you some day.

Paul

ps: Do I see some 'Union Leader' tabacco on your shelf? I have some of that also, maybe that accounts for our stubborness!!!!

Edited July 12, 2012 by pflaming

[Dave72dt]

I find a bit of irony in testing brakes at a cemetery.

Actually there's several things that can go wrong with the calipers. Fortunately, most replacements are rebuilts that ask for cores and what you paid for the whole pile should cover the core charges if you need to do that. Rotors will let you know right away if they're bad. Definately go through the brgs and repack them at a minimum.

[HanksB3B]

I find a bit of irony in testing brakes at a cemetery.

LOL,

Hank

[pflaming]

Hey, at my age, one tends to stay close to 'home'!