dudford Posted June 17, 2012 Author Report Posted June 17, 2012 Hello all, been up to my eyes in work of late but reserved this weekend to sort out car bits. Thanks to drillmastertommy for putting me on to ColinD, I took a trip up the M40 to visit him and solve a few problems that anyone who has read this thread may know about. I purchased a bellhouse, gearbox and carburettor. I'm told the gearbox was from a 1950 Plymouth Pickup (if anyone could confirm or advise this from the pics below it'd be great). Also as a no brainer for some people out there but a total mystery to me is what is this symbol? (below) Plan for me will now be to systematically strip the body off the chassis, research to pros n cons of acid bath dipping, strip the running gear off the chassis, replace with my new bellhouse and fit that starter i had shipped from Cali!!! I will then need to work out which gearbox would be best, the new 50's Plymouth one i've bought or the 1935 Dodge D2 one that i have already. Thoughts and opinions on tha appreciated greatly! Hope everyone had a great weekend! Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 NP is more than not New Process..the actual maker of the transmission.. do you mean 50 Dodge Truck as the last true Plymouth truck was in 41..not to be confused with the PT Crusiser where the PT stood for Plymouth Truck.. Quote
Merle Coggins Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Good score. You're on your way now. The symbol is for "New Process", the gearbox manufacturer. Also, since Plymouth no longer made trucks in 1950, and since Dodge switched over to column shift on the 3 speed transmissions in 1950, I'd say it's maybe a '41 or earlier Plymouth truck trans, or from a '49 or earlier Dodge truck. Either way it should work for you. Merle Quote
dudford Posted June 17, 2012 Author Report Posted June 17, 2012 I think I may have misheard the chap I bought it off. Merle, Tim i think you're both right on that... Either way its all going to marry up and there'll be another flathead on the UK roads soon. Quote
Jerry Roberts Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 If one of your transmissions has some synochronized gears , that one would be preferable over one that doesn't . The 1941 Plymouth truck in the 3 speed model had second and third gear synchronized . Quote
dudford Posted August 20, 2012 Author Report Posted August 20, 2012 After what seems an eternity I'm back at working on the coupe... The strip down has begun and my oh my what a rusted pig she's turning out to be! I certainly knew I was getting in to something quite labour intensive the day I bought it but its just so relentless! It seems like one nut & bolt in ten wants to play ball! Its now become pretty clear that where nuts have corrodded to something that barely resembles a nut im having to break or drill every fixing out. She's over 80 years old and i know I have to be understanding but its that moment of realisation that i'm going to be here some time that finally dawned on me on Sunday. Oh well, its my first real project that I'm doing, more or less on my own, and I'm enjoying it. I've managed to unseize the engine, diesel down the bores worked out well enough, and I started to strip her down fenders/wings first... If anyone has any tips on getting these pins out the door hinges I'm all ears, they're in there tight as tight. I'm guessing penetration oil heat and patience?! Duds Quote
dudford Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Posted September 16, 2012 Evening, just taking a moment away from my new born daughter (2 weeks old) to update all on my progress on the CJ, and yes, I did get permission to work on the car while the Mrs held the baby! Spent Saturday pulling everything I could off because I really want it stripped and blasted before Christmas catches up plus getting the use of outside while the weather holds up. That radiator popped off very easily, I was suprised. Essentially the rods holding it attached to the firewall were all i had to disassemble. I'll get it flushed and pressure tested as I love the honeycomb. The fact it was still holding coolant was a good sign Not ever having dealt with anything like this I was also a little suprised to see the engine mounts didnt have any rubbers on the chassis mount, instead its rubber was below the water pump mount bit. I managed to remove the headers really very easily! One casualty though, penance for having it so easy, I snapped just one of the rotten exhaust header bolts in the block leaving about 1/2" in the block. I'll get over that. It could've been worse. Had a bit of a pig of a time removing the doors. The pins being in there real good. I heated them and drifted them out but not the most fun i've ever had. Doors are in really good nick too, a blessing. I'm a very keen genealogist researching my own family history as far as I can and generally very much into any history at all which is why i'd be interested in finding out anything I can from the Body Number below? If I'm allowed to get an hour or two next weekend I plan to lift the tub off, gotta have a plan! Quote
RobertKB Posted September 16, 2012 Report Posted September 16, 2012 Before anything else, congratulations on the new daughter! You are making good progress! The tear down is never a whole lot of fun but you have a good attitude about it. A word of advice...........the old radiators should be tested very carefully. They were not designed to take a lot of pressure and you will notice a pressure release tube on the rad. Don't have you radiator shop run much, if any pressure, when they test it or you could end up ruining a perfectly good radiator. Quote
TodFitch Posted September 17, 2012 Report Posted September 17, 2012 Before anything else, congratulations on the new daughter! You are making good progress! The tear down is never a whole lot of fun but you have a good attitude about it. A word of advice...........the old radiators should be tested very carefully. They were not designed to take a lot of pressure and you will notice a pressure release tube on the rad. Don't have you radiator shop run much, if any pressure, when they test it or you could end up ruining a perfectly good radiator. Ditto RobertKB on being careful with the pressure when checking the radiator. It might not ruin the radiator but it could leave you looking for a shop that can repair the damage done by the first shop's "testing". Been there, done that. Fortunately the second shop I found was skilled enough the get the tanks back to the correct shape. Quote
greg g Posted September 17, 2012 Report Posted September 17, 2012 Congrats on the birth of your daughter bood health to her and her mom. The front motor mount is an example of Chryslers Floating power mounting system. The laminated rubber piece can still be bought for around 20 USD. There should also be some rubber isolators where the bellhousing mounts attach to the frame. The Bodys were built by Briggs (they also built bodies for Packard) The body number was assigned by Briggs probably in a consecutive order as the bodies were assemblef from components. They were shipped to the Chrylser assembly plants by truck, and when mated with fenders grills, and hoods on a chassis with engine were assigned a serial number by Chrysler by which they tracked fully assembled vehicles. In the US vehicle registrations and or titles were assigned by either the serial number or the engine number depending on state and local DMV regulations. Chysler eventually bought the Briggs Company and rolled it under the Corporate Umbrella. Bodies were built by Briggs for mopar cars till at least the late 40's or early 50's. Quote
dudford Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Posted September 17, 2012 Thank you all for your kind wishes for my new little addition to the family, Sia Lyles Lacey Palmer. I'm fitting her out for some overalls now Before anything else, congratulations on the new daughter! You are making good progress! The tear down is never a whole lot of fun but you have a good attitude about it. A word of advice...........the old radiators should be tested very carefully. They were not designed to take a lot of pressure and you will notice a pressure release tube on the rad. Don't have you radiator shop run much, if any pressure, when they test it or you could end up ruining a perfectly good radiator. OK point taken. I did notice a pressure bleed off tube out the bottom left of the rad feeding out through the chassis. Would it be a good idea to install a small expansion vessel? I just assume that the engine might run hot and so perhaps a good idea to conserve fluid on the cool down rather than incesant top ups? Congrats on the birth of your daughter bood health to her and her mom. The front motor mount is an example of Chryslers Floating power mounting system. The laminated rubber piece can still be bought for around 20 USD. There should also be some rubber isolators where the bellhousing mounts attach to the frame. The Bodys were built by Briggs (they also built bodies for Packard) The body number was assigned by Briggs probably in a consecutive order as the bodies were assemblef from components. They were shipped to the Chrylser assembly plants by truck, and when mated with fenders grills, and hoods on a chassis with engine were assigned a serial number by Chrysler by which they tracked fully assembled vehicles. In the US vehicle registrations and or titles were assigned by either the serial number or the engine number depending on state and local DMV regulations. Chysler eventually bought the Briggs Company and rolled it under the Corporate Umbrella. Bodies were built by Briggs for mopar cars till at least the late 40's or early 50's. Thanks for the outline on the history, I love all that. I looked up Mr Briggs of Briggs Mfg Co, turns out like Walter Chrysler that Mr Briggs was also a Walter... Must've been a popular name in the late 19th century. I dont think there are any rubbers on the bellhousing mount, but then that makes sense with it being the original bellhouse mated to this newer engine. One last thing, if there is anyone in the southern part of the UK who has any engine parts or whole engines for any P24 or equivelent for sale please contact me. Thanks chaps! Quote
RobertKB Posted September 17, 2012 Report Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) These old radiators find their own level. It may puke out a bit of antifreeze after filling and when first run up to temperature but after that you will be good and should not have to refill unless you have a leak. Chrysler cars did not have a pressurized system until 1950 I believe. There was a recent thread on this if you use the search function. PS - I see you are in West Sussex. After my grandfather retired, he moved from London to Goring-by-Sea. I worked in London for 3 years (1970-73) when I was in my early twenties and used to visit him and my grandmother regularly. I know West Sussex quite well. I believe Sussex was a single county then. Edited September 17, 2012 by RobertKB Quote
dudford Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Posted November 27, 2012 Had a great weekend working on the CJ. The body is completely unbolted from the chassis now but is retaining its floor pan which is probably helping to retain the shape and rigidity of the body. I dont know why but i thought the body would come up off the floor pan and then I'd have to unbolt the floor pan from the chassis but evidently I was wrong. Also interestingly there was wood seperating the floor from the chassis in the cab section but not behind, I guess thats noise deadening. Now this stumped me, I had no idea that this hole was for doing a static setup but i think its a great idea... I really dont like the look of these pistons, I spoke with my Dad and he seemed to think that they may have been damaged when installed but others have suggested its just running damage/knocking/pinking etc an its perfectly fine?! Well thats a little update of progress, I'm hoping my Mrs will be splashing out on some car parts for my christmas present and I'm pretty sure Santa would agree that I've been very good and deserve a set of Fenton Headers and an Edgy Head... a guy can dream huh? Quote
RobertKB Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 Nice to see you making headway. That piston has seen better days and I would not use it again. Parts of it are missing and you are likely to lose bigger chunks if re-used. When you pull the pistons I am guessing you will find some broken rings. New pistons and rings are relatively cheap and well worth the money to replace if the engine is apart. Quote
dudford Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Posted November 27, 2012 Nice to see you making headway. That piston has seen better days and I would not use it again. Parts of it are missing and you are likely to lose bigger chunks if re-used. When you pull the pistons I am guessing you will find some broken rings. New pistons and rings are relatively cheap and well worth the money to replace if the engine is apart. Definately going to be replaced Robert, hope the damage doesnt go too far thereafter. I also noticed that the Inlet valve highlighted below appears sunken just like the exhaust valves... Whats the diagnosis here? An incorrect valve installed, high heat and wear damage? Quote
Don Coatney Posted November 27, 2012 Report Posted November 27, 2012 It is common on high mileage Mopar flathead engines to find broken pistons upon disassembly. The broken top ring continues to eat away at the ring groove until it pokes a hole in the top and destroyes the piston. Quote
RobertKB Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 Definately going to be replaced Robert, hope the damage doesnt go too far thereafter. I also noticed that the Inlet valve highlighted below appears sunken just like the exhaust valves... Whats the diagnosis here? An incorrect valve installed, high heat and wear damage? A lot of those valves do not look right. I have never seen the ones with the dimple in the middle. The larger intake valves look right though. I would guess new valves and a valve grind are likely in order. Do a search on the forum as there is lots of information on valves that can be used. Lots of suppliers for the originals as well. Quote
Joe Flanagan Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 Vintage Power Wagons in Iowa will have everything you need. They specialize in flatheads. Quote
dudford Posted November 28, 2012 Author Report Posted November 28, 2012 Vintage Power Wagons in Iowa will have everything you need. They specialize in flatheads. Joe, just looking at Vintage Power Wagons now... it might be sad but I'm actually quite excited at the prospect of being able to order a plethora of engine parts! Thanks for the tip! Quote
Andydodge Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 Dud, another tip for engine parts is look on ebay right thru the full gambit of mopar 6 yrs, ie, if your engine is a 1941 version, don't just look under 1941 Plymouth, try 1948, 1954, 1958 as whilst there are obviously parts that only specifically fit a certain year or range of yrs, there are some which fit the full number of yrs..........a good way to check whats what is to do a search thru places that have catalogs that show the various engine parts and what yrs they have then to fit, ie, the water distribution tubes......there are only 2 sorts as far as I know..to suit a 23" and a 25" engine, so a listing for one for a 1941 Pl ymouth engine is also the same part for a 1958 Plymouth engine........places that have an online catalog include Andy Bernbaums, Steele Rubber, Restoration Specialities, Egge Machine, Roberts Motors.......another thing to keep in mind is that Chrysler setup a major parts centre in Turkey and over the last few yrs a large number of these parts have surfaced there and are regularly listed on ebay by a couple of guys. The parts are( at least all those I have purchased) genuine USA made,sourced and boxed parts and usually sell for roughly 1/3 to 1/2 what the USA price is..........I have bought valves,valve springs,lifters, timing chain and oil pump all from these guys, great parts,well packed and promptly sent.............anyway thought I'd throw my Oz 2cents in........regards, Andyd Quote
Joe Flanagan Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 Sad? That's what we do. I consider browsing the parts catalogue enjoyable reading. I remember when the parts for my rebuild came from VPW I was like a kid at Christmas. Not even Christmas was that fun. And yes to what Andy said. All the vendors he mentions are pretty much the regulars. Quote
dudford Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Posted December 10, 2012 Another weekend off work... Just had a message from a buddy and those parts from Iowa might set me back a few quid so I'm gonna have to ask for a piggy bank this Christmas! I would've posted this update yesterday, but there was maintenance, anyhoooo... On the weekend just gone I tasked myself to strip the remaining ancillaries off the 218, unbolt the block from the bellhouse, pull the block out then take out the bellhouse. All of this had to be done without an engine lift, one thing I dont have, I've got a rig to mount it on, just nothing to make my life easier getting it out. Remarkably nearly every bolt was loose, i didn't skin my knuckles AT ALL! Initially I assumed I could unbolt the block from the bellhouse and lift the block out, I was woefully in the wrong. The flywheel impeded the movement to come away without lowering the engine right down below the inner wall of the bellhouse. This I did not want to do because the further down it is, the higher I have to lift it back up without a jack underneath it. I'm sure some of you have obvious alternatives to what I did but I was just getting on. So I made a ramshackle jig to hold the engine while I whipped the bellhouse out to take the strain off my back lifting the chunk of iron/block. For those that have read the entirety of my posts, you'll know that the bellhouse was the original 1930 CJ bellhouse which was never able to accomodate the starter against the 50's block. It was finally time to drop it out, and drop out it did. To my surprise, once I unbolted the bellhouse from the chassis mounts the chassis mounts fell off... I just didnt expect them to drop, does that make me naive? I had no idea the bellhouse would be held, in part, by compression. I understand the theory that the vibration is limited through the rubbers but I still laughed when they hit the deck. A little bit brute force and ignorance and that engine was out and I'm another step on the restoration road. So, next weekend off is the 22nd December, might throw a Christmas party, invite some people round and coerce them into the garage to pull the body off! Until then I got tidying up to do... Quote
greg g Posted December 11, 2012 Report Posted December 11, 2012 Good bit of progress. Keep pluging along. Your pictures will become important when your reassembly starts. Quote
dudford Posted December 15, 2012 Author Report Posted December 15, 2012 Good bit of progress. Keep pluging along. Your pictures will become important when your reassembly starts. Still plugging along! Pre lift... After the lift... Any ideas what was here before someone chopped it off: This is on the outside of the chassis, hidden by the "skirt" over the chassis. On the opposite side of this is where the rubbers are attached to the inside of the chassis to receive the bellhouse. Anyone got any thoughts? Looks like whoever cut a part of it off made a real mess... annoying. Quote
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