New to the site and to flatheads

[spitfire]

Hello everyone. My name is Dan and I very recently purchased a 1950 Chrysler Windsor, equipped with a 251 Spitfire head engine and a fluid drive transmission. I'm really excited to have the car and I love driving it. I think I'm the only 19 year old in my area who loves flathead 6 cars ! I hope I'm ok posting about this car here. You guys seem to really know what you are talking about. I hope to hang around and learn as much as I can about these engines.

I know a little history on the car. The car was purchased in Santa Rosa, California (about 10-15 minutes from me) new. In 1963, the owner sold the car to her friends, who live in another outlying town (what I'm getting at is that this car has always been local). They used to car to go to Reno a couple times and in 1969, the car was parked indoors. The owner took proper care in making sure it was safe for storage. It has 87,000 original miles on it and has good compression in each cylinder. The body just has a little surface rust on the driver side fender,on the driver side rear quarter, and on a couple misc. parts. There's absolutely no cancer anywhere.The interior is an easy 7-8 of 10. I purchased it from the surviving owner (well, did business with her son). He changed the oil, replaced the brakes, wheel cylinders, master cylinder, and installed some points that he thought were correct, but he wasn't sure, so suggested that I change them out. He also put some good used tires on it. The water pump was a bit leaky, so he gave me a new one that was still in the box.

So far, I've replaced the oil filter, spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, rotor, condenser, serviced the transmission with 10w non-detergent, checked the fluid drive level, rebuilt the carburetor, and had a new exhaust installed. I still need to change the oil again, change the hoses, change the water pump, service the cooling system, change the points, etc. The car runs beautifully and doesn't seem to burn oil.

I had a few questions on things that I would like to do to the car.

First thing, is it ok to use detergent 30w oil? I can get non-detergent just as easy, but I know that detergent oil is a better choice, if it can be used. My concern is that if there's tons of sludge built up in the engine, will it cut all the stuff loose and plug up the oil passages? Also, should I add a zinc additive or something?

From reading on this website, I've found a few improvements that can be made to extend the life of the engines. PCV valve, 180 degree thermostat, possibly gut the oil bath filter and install a paper filter, and pull the valve inspection panel and clean out the sludge. Are these all good practices? Is there anything else that I can do? I've been letting it warm up plenty every time I start it, as I read that driving these motors cold is a big no-no. I've also been keeping it in the 55-60 mph range. I'm a little nervous to ask the motor to do 65.

The fluid drive fluid is pretty old looking. The owner's manual (yup, still has the original owners manual) states that you do not need to service it. Would it be a good practice to suck out the old fluid with a small pump and add new 10w non-detergent oil?

One issue I'm experiencing is that the clutch is sticking. I've greased the fittings and sprayed WD-40 on some of the different pivot points, but so far it hasn't changed much. Could there be a worn return spring?

I really enjoy working on the car. It's also a pleasure to drive and things seem to get a little better day-by-day as I drive it. So far my best mpg average is 13.5, which doesn't seem to terrible for a 61 year old 4,000 pound car with a straight 6. My dad says that I need to drive it like a normal car, but I've been being real easy on it, because I want to take care of it the best I can. I haven't done a hwy test yet.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and thank you in advance for any help. Also, sorry to just jump in with lots of questions, I'm just excited to get her running the best she can. I hope you all have a wonderful day!

[moose]

Welcome, from another 50 Windsor owner. Two door, or four door? Got any pictures?

[Kevinb71]

Welcome to the site! I also am a slightly OT member as i have a 49 Windsor Club coupe. I don't think anyone will hassle us over the nonconformance. This is a great site with lots of knowledge. Welcome

[thrashingcows]

Welcome to the Board!!

Sounds like you got yourself a real gem. Yes we would all love to see some pics. Great that your getting into these old cars at such a young age. Did you grow up in a car family?

[Young Ed]

Yes welcome don't worry about your car its close enough. When I joined all I had was a 46 dodge 1/2 ton. I've since added a 48 plymouth.

[1940plymouth]

Dan,

Welcome aboard, ditto on photos:)

[48mirage]

First the fluid drive unit can be drained by removing the plug accessed from a panel on the passenger side of the hump. Don't drop the plug. Then you can rotate the flywheel and drain the fluid drive completely. The oil in the fluid drive is not 10w motor oil. It is a hydraulic fluid of 10w. A search on this site will give you all sorts of info. I used Valvoline Universal Tractor Fluid. It takes almost 2 gallons and it is a slow process trying to pour it in that small hole.

I too when I got my '49 dodge removed the valve covers and cleaned out all of the sludge. I also cleaned out the oil pan and then went to the Walmart brand 20w-50 motor oil. The oil you use is a personal choice and you can find all sorts of positions for different choices. I believe on your engine it can be coverted to a full flow filter by blocking a passage in the oil gallery. This could be done with the pan removed. The filters used in our old cars are readily available from Napa.

A zinc additive would be a good idea if it had a fresh rebuild, but the oils of today are much better then was around when our cars were new.

You will want to review all of the tabs on the www.p15-d24.com website and try to use the search feature for what you can. But we will always have some help here if you need information that you need clarification on or additional advice.

Jim

[Tom Skinner]

Dan,

Welcome to the site. I have owned a couple of 1948 Chrysler Royals and they tend to like oil changes - frequently, which is OK. You choose an Oil.

The Spitfire 6 can get up to 18-20mpg when the Timing is set right and a Vacumn gauge then sets the fuel mixture to the highest reading at the Carb.

Good Luck with your Car and enjoy it - I have been doing that since I was your age - back since the earlt 1970's. Its a Great Hobby and will last a lifetime when you want it to. The more you drive these old Mopars the better they run.

Tom

[P-12 Tommy]

Hi Dan. Welcome to the gang! It's good to get younger people interested in the older cars. They have a rich history. Can't wait to see pics. Sounds like you have a nice car.

Tom

[spitfire]

Wow, thanks for the warm welcome, guys! This seems to be a very active forum.

Moose, the car is a four door. Sorry for forgetting to mention that. Heck, I didn't even need to say that, the pics will answer that question!

Kevin, that must be a gorgeous car. I really like the way these flathead mopar cars look as two doors. I was going to purchase a 1951 Cranbrook couple with a 3 speed, but this car was local and in really good shape. The other car had some cancer and the interior wasn't in as good of shape.

Thrashingcows, my family actually isn't a car family. I'm the car nut. I've wanted a classic car since I was small enough to where I couldn't see over the chrome grills . I sold my regular car due to many problems and other details, plus I had some money saved up, so I took the opportunity and bought this one. My father isn't into repairing cars, so I'm a combination of self taught and helped by my uncle, a couple of neighbors, and nice people like you over the web. I learned off of a 1980 Cadillac Eldorado (I still have that car), which has fuel injection and no diagnostic capabilities, so this car is really nice to deal with.

48mirage, thank you for that help. I really do want to drain the fluid drive system. The fluid looked nice and black. I wouldn't be surprised if it's never been drained. At least it was full haha! So, you use multi-viscosity oils? I was kind of curious about that. I wasn't sure if these motors would do ok with all the new oils. Thanks a ton for the information.

Tom Skinner, by these cars liking oil changes, do you mean that they like to burn the oil, or that they dirty the oil, or? So far mine hasn't burned any, but did get dirty fairly quick. I'm just afraid to dump detergent oil in it, but I'm sure that's what the po did. Also, is that hwy mpg or all around average? That's excellent gas mileage for a car this vintage. I've never really tuned a carburetor, so I will have to do some reading on tuning it with a vacuum gauge, as you suggested. I have been meaning to do the points and the timing. Maybe that will be tomorrows project. Thanks a ton for the help.

P-12 tommy, older cars do have a rich history! I always picture the early owners driving around with their families in the earlier days of our old stomping grounds.

I'm really happy with the car. The engine runs with 50-55 lbs of oil pressure and just purrs. I noticed how smooth it is under acceleration today. It makes sense to me though, because when your engine is configured in a "V", the inertia from the pistons could make the engine want to rock back and forth, due to, say, a 90 degree setup. With these engines, the inertia from the pistons just create energy that travels "north to south", so to speak. I'm only speculating. Maybe it's so smooth just because the car is so heavy and solid.

I haven't done a whole lot of cleaning, but I think after a good buff job and some touch up with matched paint, it will look great. The interior needs cleaning, but it's still ok. It has seat covers on it that have been on it since the car was new. They are just about mint. I have cleaned it up since, and it looks much better. The first exterior pic is before any cleaning. I had just got it home. Also, sorry for the poor quality, they are cell phone pictures.

After I get it all polished, the interior cleaned and detailed, and the rust taken care of, I will take some better pictures and post them up.

Thanks everyone,

Dan

I just noticed that you can see the ground strap hanging from the frame in the first picture. I didn't even know about those before this car.

Edited February 2, 2011 by spitfire

[Frank Elder]

Welcome, what a nice car you have there Spitfire!

Edited February 2, 2011 by FRANKIE47

[Greenbomb]

Welcome! You did good! That oughta be alotta fun and a cool old ride. And you won't see yourself driving down the road!

[Don Coatney]

Dan,

Welcome to the site. I have owned a couple of 1948 Chrysler Royals and they tend to like oil changes - frequently, which is OK. Tom

Exactly how do you know 1948 Crashler Royals like oil changes? Do they tell you so?

I drive my car 7,000 miles or more on an oil change. My engine does not burn oil but it will leak about a half quart every couple of thousand miles.

Spitfire;

Post some pictures of your engine to include your oil filter. Nice looking Crashler.

[greg g]

Welcome, where are you from??? Take a bit of time and put some more info in you porfile page. If you notice most folks have a reference to their cars make and year embedded in each post. It keeps us old guys from trying to remember back to your first post when you ask questions later.

by the way Fluid drive is the engine to transmission coupling not the transmission. Is your car equipped with a three speed, or the semi automatic clunk o matic???

Also make sure you use your parking brake and that it operates properly, as unlike new automatics there is no PARK and unlike regular dry clutches there is no engine compression braking when the engine is not running.

If you have the Semi automatic, there is a great illustrated mechanics manual reporduced on the Imperial club website.

If you are in the northeast or nearby, the Walter P Chrysler club is having a meet in Vermont in July ( 13 through 16) couple of us are tryig to drum up some interest is going as a group. Keep it in mind if you can.

You have a nice solid car. I bought my 46 Plymouth when I was 21, back when it wasn't yet classified as an antique yet....coming up on 41 years of ownership.

[T120]

Hi Dan,Welcome to the forum.You have a very nice car in enviable original condition.Nice to see someone your age with enthusiasm and an interest in the old cars.Glad it found a good home

Edited February 2, 2011 by Ralph D25cpe

[Dodgeb4ya]

Very nice original car! I say no to changing the Fluid Coupling oil! If it works good leave it. 1950 model years had two types of FD seals. It can be risky to change the fluid as the graphite seal and bellows possibly could leak after the fluid change. I'm not saying it will but have seen this happen more than once. JMO.

I have a few 1946-52 Chryslers myself and they are all M5/6 transmissions both 6 and 8 cylinder cars . I really like em too! How nice is the steering wheel?

Bob

[BobT-47P15]

I believe Mr Spitfire lives in the Santa Rosa, CA area, according to his

initial post.........I know a little history on the car. The car was purchased in Santa Rosa, California

(about 10-15 minutes from me) new. In 1963, the owner sold the car to her friends, who live in

another outlying town (what I'm getting at is that this car has always been local).

Welcome. Sure a great looking car. That steering wheel looks to be

in perfect condition. If it's the plastic one, those are pretty hard to

find and expensive.

[Dodgeb4ya]

1949-50 Chryslers have a really nice dash layout.

[spitfire]

Hey everyone, thanks for the kind words. Sorry about the profile, it's all fixed. I will personalize it further in the future.

Bob (Dodgeb4ya), thanks for the advice. It's working fine, so maybe I will leave it. As long as it shouldn't cause a problem leaving it. One problem I did have twice is the car not wanting to shift into 4th when in high gear. I tried low gear, but the same thing happened- I had 1st, but no 2nd. Eventually it went back to normal. I've put over 100 miles on it since the last incident and it hasn't done anything of the sort since. My guess is that the solenoid or the governor contacts are dirty/corroded a little. It did sit for a long time.

Greg, I have the Semi automatic "clunk o matic." Yeah, the parking brake seems to work ok, but it could use some adjusting. It could be better. The po made sure that I knew that there was no park, so the parking brake is a must. I hope to own my car for another 41 years!

Bob and bob, the steering wheel is ok, but the plastic is cracked. There aren't any pieces missing out of the plastic or anything, but it isn't at all perfect. It doesn't bother me, though. My last car had a leather steering wheel, and when it got hot inside the car, part of it would melt and get on my hands or pants. I polished up the chrome on the steering wheen and it really shines. There is minor pitting on the chrome, but nothing too serious. I'm pretty impressed with how well the chrome held up over the years. They really built cars back then!

Don, I will post some pictures of the engine as soon as possible. It's not real pretty, but not bad either.

I'm glad the car isn't perfect. I'll be honest, the car is parked outdoors and it's my daily driver. I don't have a place to store it. I'm going to cover it, but that's all I can do for now. Also, I know there's a lot of mixed opinions on using a classic car as a daily driver. My last two cars were 80s cars, riddled with vacuum lines and prehistoric sensors. I sold the Camaro after spending 10-20 hours per week on average repairing it. I really enjoy working on cars, but I hate dealing with all the extra stuff in the way. I've had lots of fun working on this car so far and it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if it keeps needing work (I know it will). I'm prepared for hours of work. I'm also happy that this car is the one getting me started in classic cars. I always jump into things head-first and choose the most trashed item to learn from. This time, I chose something solid that I can use and learn on slowly. It will kind of break me into classics.

I purchased some antifreeze, so tomorrow it's cooling system day. I'm going to replace what look like the original, weeping flex hoses with some new flex hoses I purchased from NAPA as well as swap out the water pump with the one that's waiting in the trunk. I'm going to flush the cooling system a bit first, though. I may try to do the points as well and maybe lubricate some more of the many lube points.

Can anyone steer me in the correct direction for tuning the carb? The mixture screw was at one turn out when I took the carb apart, so that's where I put it back. It runs really good, but there is a very, very small amount of roughness off idle. I don't know if that's the slip from the fluid coupling or something needing to be tuned.

Another thing- the car came with a factory radio delete, but the previous owners found an original radio for it back in the 60s. They never installed it, just left it in the trunk. I restore tube radios, so I have it on my bench and I've started the restoration process. I've never done a car radio, so it will be an adventure, but I'm really looking forward to the finished product. I'm going to wire in an audio jack, so I can plug an mp3 player into it. It will just be like a pig tail and it will be hideable, so no one will ever notice it. I can also easily remove it in the future. That way, the car is still pretty close to original.

Thanks for the help and support! This is the most helpful forum I've ever joined.

Dan

Edited February 2, 2011 by spitfire

[spitfire]

1949-50 Chryslers have a really nice dash layout.

I very much agree!

[Andydodge]

Dan, welcome to the best bunch of car guys on the net, they really go outa their way to help, thats a nice car you have there, regards from sunny Sth Grafton NSW Australia.........Andyd

[spitfire]

Thanks, Andyd!

This photo I found on google really gave me some encouragement. I guess this is what my car would look like with fresh paint and some white walls! The color is actually really pretty.

[Young Ed]

Dan my opinion I'd try to find the proper formed hoses. Never been a fan of flex hoses.

[48mirage]

This site may answer some questions for you.

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/index.htm

You might want to take a look of page 29 of this one in regards to your fluid drive.

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/049/index.htm

Edited February 2, 2011 by 48mirage

[Dodgeb4ya]

The 2nd link above refers to the more updated modern "Fluid Torque Drive" torque converter.

It came about in 1951 on the Chrysler Hemi cars as an option. It is a true torque converter- not a fluid coupling as in the regular 1950 Chrysler. The fluid in FTD should be changed out as the factory manual states. In early 1951 this a huge 10-12 quart oil change. In 1952 the design was simplified and had a regular oil pan sump requiring less oil to change out and much easier to change the fluid.

The M-6 trans was still the same design but a different ratio gear set for the FTD. 10W oil in it as before to change out.

Bob

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