Engineers of yester year compared to today!

[p10plymouth]

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I am at a show yesterday, next to me a 82 yr old man with his 1939 v12 Packard! showing his car and talking! I overheard him say ... "the reason these cars and others of the time , where overbuilt is because compared to to days engineers they only have a 8th grade education"...! And they overbuilt because they couldn't figure how to do any other way! I feel from the beginning of automotive engineering , those where the guys with the smarts not the other way around .. Too much electronic help for the new guys... I am not talking about being resourceful or material usage just the guy that thought up ideas! ...So who's more smarter a Pre 1942 guy or a guy after 1946? ...

[Alexander]

Post WWII the US had amazing growth, partly to all those super smart European immigrants who came to the US seeking a better life and perhaps to escape persecution.

We had “the best of all the worlds” come to the US during this time.

As a result we had the highest talent per capita then any other country of that time.

Wernher von Braun- Famous rocket scientist who invented most of the rocket technology we use today.

Albert Einstein- E=MC2

[55 Fargo]

Prior to the 19th and 20th century, material progress was slow. A lot of it had to do with people's superstician and closed mindedness.

The world was supposed to be flat, until Galileo, told us it was round, they nearly executed him for his astronomical heresies.......Fred

I do not think the intelect of the automotive engineers was inferior to any of those today. I do think the evolution of the industry and the ability to manufacture needed 60 to 70 years to evolve. I think the automotive engineers work was perhaps tougher in the old days, because so much was new and in a process of Discovery.....Fred

Edited August 24, 2009 by Rockwood

[40phil41]

'Modern' mechanical engineering was developed in the 1920s and 1930s by a Russian (who moved to the US) by the name of Timoshenko. Materials and computational methods have improved dramatically since then but the fundamentals are essentially the same. Factors of safety have been able to be reduced as a result of those improvements.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Phil

[Captain Neon]

Prior to the 19th and 20th century, material progress was slow. A lot of it had to do with people's superstician and closed mindedness.

The world was supposed to be flat, until Galileo, told us it was round, they nearly executed him for his astronomical heresies.......Fred

I do not think the intelect of the automotive engineers was inferior to any of those today. I do think the evolution of the industry and the ability to manufacture needed 60 to 70 years to evolve. I think the automotive engineers work was perhaps tougher in the old days, because so much was new and in a process of Discovery.....Fred

Galileo stated that the Sun not the Earth was the center of the Universe in 1610. Copernicus stated same in 1543.

Columbus tried to prove that the Earth was round when he "discovered" America in 1492. Magellan's crew proved that Earth was round when they circumnavigated the globe in 1522. Drake affirmed Magellan in 1580. All of this happened before the 17th Century (1600s) commenced. Long before Galileo was tried for heresy by the Roman Catholic Church.

By the 19th Century, folks were arguing whether or not a man could fly. The Industrial Revolution was in full swing and man regularly circumnavigated the globe in international trade. By the time of the 19th Century, human beings were dreaming of ways to dig canals across the Isthmus of Panama.

While Ford and Chrysler were not educated men, I am quite sure that by the 1930s, automobile engineers were all college educated men. Perhaps very few Master's and Ph.D's in the group, but they did not have merely 8th grade educations. Even in the '30s, those with an 8th grade education were shop foremen or holding less skilled positions.

Why were cars "over-built?" Because that is what the consumer wanted as they thought that was the essence of safety and quality.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Captain Neon
Apologies to Ptolemy who also realised the Earth was round by 168 AD.

[greg g]

Don't know if he was classified as an engineer, but my Uncle Glenn made a bit of a name for himself, tinkering with stuff. Glenn Curtiss was a second cousin to my father's mother

Curtiss was born in 1878 in Hammondsport, New York to Frank Richmond Curtiss and Lua Andrews. Although he only received a formal education up to Grade 8, his early interest in mechanics and inventions was evident at his first job at the Eastman Dry Plate and Film Company (later Eastman Kodak Company) in Rochester, New York.[1] He invented a stencil machine adopted at the plant and later built a rudimentary camera to study photography.[1] On 7 March 1898, Curtiss married Lena Pearl Neff, daughter of Guy L. Neff, in Hammondsport, NY.

Bicycles and motorcycles

Curtiss began his career as a Western Union bicycle messenger, a bicycle racer, and bicycle shop owner. In 1901 he developed an interest in motorcycles when internal combustion engines became more available. In 1902 Curtiss began manufacturing motorcycles with his own single cylinder engines. His first motorcycle actually had a tomato can for a carburetor. In 1903 he set a motorcycle land speed record at 64 miles per hour (103 km/h) for one mile (1.6 km). When E.H. Corson of the Indian Motorcycle Company visited Hammondsport in July 1904, he was amazed that the entire Curtiss motorcycle enterprise was sited in the back room of the modest "shop". Corson's motorcycles had just been trounced the week before by "Hell Rider" Curtiss in an endurance race from New York to Cambridge, Maryland. [2]

In 1907, Curtiss set a world record of 136.36 miles per hour (219.45 km/h), on a 40 horsepower (30 kW) V8 powered motorcycle of his own design and construction. He would remain "the fastest man in the world," to use the title the newspapers gave him, until 1911. By this time, Curtiss' success at racing had solidified his reputation as a leading maker of high-performance motorcycles.

If any one ever gets to the finger lakes region of New York state make sure you check out the Curtiss Museum in Mammondsport, NY. Lot of Unk's aircraft engines got used in Rum Runner vessels during the Prohibitioin era.

[james curl]

When a science, such as engineering is just beginning, at first it is all trial and error, when something works it is recorded as good and factual. People build upon the foundation of other peoples work untill you have enough proven facts to be able to teach a large number of people the skills to design and build things. There was no formal school of flight aerodynamics for the Wright brothers to study at before building their first successful flying aircraft. Other people took what they had done and built on it and now you can get a degree in aeronautical engineering. Even to this day when you build a new aircraft to sell to the public the FAA requires you to obtain a flight certificate from them. The structure is static tested to 200 percent of anticipated load without failure to prove that your calculations are correct. I think the 200 percent is correct, it has only been 38 years since designed my last aircraft part.

[greg g]

Don't wanna start the Wright Bros Curtiss argument but Unk's plaens were far more advanced than anything the Wrights came up with even in the same time period can you say ailerons.

[TodFitch]

Back to cars and to Chrysler specifically. The engineering effort hired by Chrysler even prior to the creation of Chrysler Corporation was led by "the three musketeers": Fred Zeder, Owne Skelton and Carl Breer. As I understand it all three were college educated engineers. Carl went to Throop Polytechnic Institute (later named CalTech) and Stanford University. There is a reason that Chrysler Corporation was known for its engineering.

Before the advent of electronic computers the modern methods of numerical analysis were prohibitively time consuming. As a result other methods were often used to estimate loads and there was usually a large safety factor used to cover the very likely result of computational error and material variations.

[Plymouthy Adams]

flash forward to 2055, gramps sitting around talking to the the grandkids..man what I would give to have a quality car like they built at the turn of the century..you think they cheap built overpriced plastic now..just wait..

[Joe Flanagan]

I suppose they'll be making cars out of vegetable fiber by then. Powered by methane.

[Don Coatney]

I suppose they'll be making cars out of vegetable fiber by then. Powered by methane.

Now were talking! I could fuel my own car:eek:

[pflaming]

I should copy these posts and send that to as many high school auto mechanic teachers I can find. It was a very interesting read. Thank you for the information. It doesn't matter to me if some of you differ in your insight, it was GREAT.

We need to remember that car and trucks had to drive on ROUGH roads. If today's cars spent 90% of their life on gravel roads, I wonder how long the plastic would last.

Finally, I have an 87 T-Bird. At 300,000 miles it still has the original spark plugs and wires, engine, tranny, front suspension and rear brakes. Not bad. It has a 5.0 EFI engine and gets 24 mpg on the highway in complete comfort. Not bad.

[james curl]

Greg, I was not trying to start an argument about Glen Curtis versa the Wright Brothers but to make the point that in the early days the few schools that offered an aeronautical engineering degree, some offered a one year course to their mechanical and civil engineering school. As you stated Glen Curtis had an eighth grade education, I worked for a chief engineer who built his own airplane and taught himself to fly and was giving rides before the CAA was formed. He had been a draftsman for Louis Chevrolet and helped to design an early engine. He only had a high school education. He was the chief engineer for the Beach Bonanza, for the first civilian aircraft that Beach offered to the public after WW II. He worked for Mc Donald Douglas on the jet fighters; he was a self-taught engineer.

[Don Coatney]

My father (born 1902, died 1981) did not graduate from high school. He worked in the electrical engineering field all of his life. At the age of 62 he studied for and passed the test to become a Registered Professional Engineer. I think that passing that test was the most proud moment in his entire life.

[james curl]

Don, I am sure it was. I can not count the number of times that I heard "if only you had an engineering degree then we could pay you what you are worth" The State kept revising the rules for the requirements to take the test until it takes a degree in something to qualify to take the test so I just resigned myself to the role of design draftsman.

[greg g]

James, I wasn't talking about you starting an argument. It's like Columbus discovering America, the Wright Bros are cedited for being the pioneers of powered flight when in fact they were part of a larger group that was working the concept and did not get recognized for thier efforts, may of which were used on the Wright flyer without attribution. I believe the story goes that the Wrights and Curtiss got in a tiff over Curtiss supplying and engine for their plane, and his refusal to provide one based on his observation of the uncraftsman like device. Upon which he decided to build his own.

I guess it boils down to the fact there was enough development ot go around to any one who was interested and inclined.

My father was another one who had an engineers accumen but not the education.

He designed and built pneumatic and hydraulic control circuits for packaging machinery.

[TodFitch]

...snip... We need to remember that car and trucks had to drive on ROUGH roads. If today's cars spent 90% of their life on gravel roads, I wonder how long the plastic would last. ...snip...

A couple of years ago I took my wife on a tour of some of the places in Arizona that I remembered from childhood. The drive included a couple of hours on a washboard dirt road. The dash on my 2004 model year car has rattled ever since and the gear selector has been a bit sticky ever since too.

My guess is that many of today's cars would be retired much sooner than they are if they had to spend 90% of their time on the roads our old cars used.

Conversely, I suspect that our old cars will last a lot longer now that they seldom see a dirt road.

[Bingster]

There was a mentality back in the thirties, for example, that I suspect might have its origin in the fact that so many of the people who designed automobiles, railroad locomotives and passenger equipment, etc. came from the Old World school. There was a pride of craftsmanship that I see lacking today.

A case in point are the streamlined railroad passenger trains of the thirties and early forties.

All of the major railroads and a lot of the lesser ones were competing for passengers and streamlined trains were the new thing. This is something that can only happen in a capitalistic system like ours. There were so many beautifully appointed passenger car interiors back then due to this competition.

I look at the Southern Pacific Daylight trains on the West Coast. They put the new streamlined Daylights into service in 1937. The interior was just dripping with the new Streamline Modern style. The aluminum trim work was plentiful and it was solid aluminum. All the appointments were first class from the sinks in the washrooms to the toilets. I know because for a time I collected these items and restored many pieces from these old cars.

Now, after the war the interiors changed. The metal trim was not solid polished aluminum like it had been pre-war. For the 1949 Shasta Daylight, the trim inside was reduced in size and it was now a fluted stainless steel stamping. The detail work on the trim that was so beautiful in the 1937-41 trains was abolished for a more conservative and cost effective approach.

I really think WWII radically changed how industrial designers thought after the war. The necessity for fast production and newer materials had a great influence on profucts produced after the war.

I believe that planes like the B-17 Flying Fortress were built well and as safe as possible, but I have to also believe that with the extreme demand for them overseas that they were built not to last a lifetime but to get the job done.

This planned obsolescence I know was incorporated into railroad cars. A passenger car was built to last thirty years. They figured by that time it would be worn out and superceded by a new design. Autos the same way.

Automobiles came out of coachmaking as we all know. The early cars looked like wagons without the horse. Coachmaking was an artform. I think this mentality carried over well into the perfection of the auto. Cars in the twenties still looked kind of crude compared to the thirties, and here again streamlining with the teardrop form contributed an awful lot to auto carbodies. When they went to those teardrop shaped rounded fenders they probably had to make the metal thicker to survive the stamping process.

Anyway, I don't really think it had to do with that 8th grade education line.