Was Ford The Only Smart One Of The Big Three?

[Captain Neon]

All of this is explained in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged. Some will claim that her book has no basis in reality, but it looks all terribly familiar to me. I'd be happy to send a copy if any one is interested.

[Dennis Hemingway]

Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it.

They failed and it closed. Now, we are trusting the economy of our country and 850+ Billion Dollars to a pack of nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling booze.

Now if that don't make you nervous, what does???

Dennis:eek:

[Captain Neon]

Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it.

They failed and it closed. Now, we are trusting the economy of our country and 850+ Billion Dollars to a pack of nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling booze.

Now if that don't make you nervous, what does???

Dennis:eek:

LOL

Well stated!

[TodFitch]

As far as the government bailout of auto industries there is an e-mail that has been floating around for a month or so. I dont have it handy but it says.....

There are around 40 million American workers over 50 years oid. The Government should give each of these workers one million dollars each with a few stipulations.

1) They must quit there job. This opens up 40 million new jobs and the unemployment problem is fixed.

2) They must buy a new American built car and this fixes the auto industry.

3) They must buy a new house or pay off there current house and this fixes the financial crisis.

To me this makes a lot more sense than pouring good money after bad to the banks and industries that have put us in the current crisis we are in.

I get confused with big numbers but I think that works out to 40 trillion dollars for that plan. Sounds a lot bigger and more expensive than what I have heard coming out of Washington so maybe the government is trying to be frugal.

And the plan would be bad for me: $1M is not enough for me to retire on at age of 50 (or even the older age I am at now). Having essentially no pension, all my retirement is going to come out of my own pocket. Forgetting the actuarial tables for a moment (they are bad enough), nearly all my male ancestors going back 400 years have lived into their 80s so I'm expecting to live to a ripe old age. There is no way $1M is going to last me for 40 years even if I did not have to think about health care.

GM has been going downhill for decades. Chrysler got reamed by Daimler.

Both would have been in bankruptcy court right now if they hadn't gotten Washington to kick in because they had run out of private money that was willing to lend to them. And in every economy, especially a capitalistic economy, the "golden rule" is that those with the gold make the rules. So you are beholden to those you have borrowed from which is where GM and Chrysler are now.

[Norm's Coupe]

Both would have been in bankruptcy court right now if they hadn't gotten Washington to kick in because they had run out of private money that was willing to lend to them. And in every economy, especially a capitalistic economy, the "golden rule" is that those with the gold make the rules. So you are beholden to those you have borrowed from which is where GM and Chrysler are now.

Well.........it seams it will make no difference now, at least as far as GM is concerned. The new government appointed CEO of GM said it on the 5:30 PM (CST) news tonight. They do not believe that they can meet the requirements the administration set forth by June 1st. And even if they could, it probably would not help. Also said GM would probably file bankruptcy sometime before the deadline. Then restructure from there. One of the restructure plans says that only the Chevy and Cadillac marques would be made after the restructure. Would not surprise me if Chrysler did the same soon.

This will hurt a lot of middle class people as well as the company. But.....at the same time it gets them out of debt and the government out of their hair. So, I think it's the thing to do myself.

[Captain Neon]

Both would have been in bankruptcy court right now if they hadn't gotten Washington to kick in because they had run out of private money that was willing to lend to them. And in every economy, especially a capitalistic economy, the "golden rule" is that those with the gold make the rules. So you are beholden to those you have borrowed from which is where GM and Chrysler are now.

Or to put it more succintly...

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

-Proverbs 22:7

[pflaming]

Times have changed. Dad raised wheat in a hail belt, got hailed out three years running and still made it, NO BAIL OUT!, yet we build cities below the level of the sea, on or below river levels, up and down the Missouri and the Mississippi, North Dakota, in deserts, Las Angeles and when life goes normal and the floods come, we cry!

In California hundreds of thousands of acres of fertile farm land lie idle today, people are out of work yet millions of gallons of water run into the ocean because some fish might die.

We cannot pray in the schools yet ask for prayer when the towers fall, the snow keeps falling, the rivers rise, and the kids we can no longer spank end up in the prisons. Then we use whatever definition of God/god we have for help but only after we refused to ask Him for direction.

Well it ain't going to be pretty, sortof glad I'm 70, but feel for the future of my grandkids.

Yet I enjoy life, still have it better than 95% of the rest of the world, at least for now.

AND I enjoy the forum, it's just a great place for advise, to see incredible creativity, and wonderfully rebuilt old trucks.

[RobertKB]

I love the way on this forum people can have quite divergent opinions yet everybody just has their say one way or another and things carry on. Never will there be a time when everybody agrees on everything all the time. It is wonderful we can agree to disagree in such an amiable manner. The politicians could learn a lot from us!

[steveplym]

I agree with you there Robert. We can actually settle things in a bipartisan manner.

[Norm's Coupe]

Times have changed. Dad raised wheat in a hail belt, got hailed out three years running and still made it, NO BAIL OUT!, yet we build cities below the level of the sea, on or below river levels, up and down the Missouri and the Mississippi, North Dakota, in deserts, Las Angeles and when life goes normal and the floods come, we cry!

In California hundreds of thousands of acres of fertile farm land lie idle today, people are out of work yet millions of gallons of water run into the ocean because some fish might die.

We cannot pray in the schools yet ask for prayer when the towers fall, the snow keeps falling, the rivers rise, and the kids we can no longer spank end up in the prisons. Then we use whatever definition of God/god we have for help but only after we refused to ask Him for direction.

Well it ain't going to be pretty, sortof glad I'm 70, but feel for the future of my grandkids.

Yet I enjoy life, still have it better than 95% of the rest of the world, at least for now.

AND I enjoy the forum, it's just a great place for advise, to see incredible creativity, and wonderfully rebuilt old trucks.

I think this is about the best anyone has put it all day.

Just like you are glad you are 70, I'm glad I'll be 65 in May. At least I can take early retirement if things get too rough. But........like you said, it'll be rough for those who can't do that now.

[Captain Neon]

We can actually settle things in a bipartisan manner.

If I may chime in here, there are a lot more opinions out there than just two so I really do not like the term "bipartisan." As far as I, and many other people out there, are concerned the two majour political parties of which the term bipartisan implies are not really all that different ideologically. One of my favourite analogies to modern politics is "p arguing with q."

I could go on and on about the way the deck is stacked against independents and minour parties, and their candidates in this country. I just want to point out that many times there are more than just a couple of solutions to one problem.

Also, sometimes people that come from totally different points of view can come to the same solution. If one were to take some time and look at the ideas that are ignored or pooh-poohed by the "experts" and how people of very different ideologies outside the mainstream all agree.

I will never forget the "debate" I had in 2006 against my Green opponent for US Senate, and how despite the best attempts by the moderator to get us to fight we sort of tag-teamed the establishment positions and explained our similar positions. MPR never expected a progressive and a paleoconservative/libertarian to have so much common ground. There was no point in the two of us fighting on-air, we were interested in two totally different blocks of voters and using the airtime to express our own positive visions for the US Senate.

[greg g]

I like most of the other people here bought a house I could afford (the bank told us we needed 20% down and based our application on our previous 3 years of verified earnings.) As we progressed up the ladder, we bought 2 more houses using our equity to reduce our mortgage needs. Never once paid late, refinanced once to put on siding and a roof, only bounced 3 checks in 40 years, never paid a late fee, used savings to pay for our daughter's college expenses, bought numerous cars and never had one reposessed. Made a little money on mutual funds, saved and invested wisely.

Our current mortgage will be paid off in three years or maybe sooner, we are both retired and not yet collecting Social Security. So what part of the government's hand outs are we getting??? Close your eyes whaddya see. But thanks for being a good citizen.

We will get a lien release and a nice thank you letter from the third holder of our second mortgage, and be on our way.

It just frosts my nads that those who corrupted, abused, and used the system will benifit from the Govts handouts to patch up thier screwups while you and I and the rest who played by the rules get to BOHICA one more time. ( Bend over Here it Comes Again )

Just once I'd like to see the honest, hardworking stand up folks get their 15 minutes in the sun.

Want me to stimulate the economy, give me a check to pay off half the rest of my house payments, and I will use what I save each month to go play and buy stuff to do my part.

Honest I will use the money to pay the mortgage. Even though the bank doesn't deserve another penny.

Get ready, assume the position. That's it, feet shoulder width apart, bend forward at the waist and relax. Oh yea, you may fell some discomfort or a slight pinch.......

[steveplym]

Well I was using "Bipartisan" as a joke. You hear our politicians say they are doing things in a bipartisan manner when really only a few people from either side signed on. I was joking at that.

I don't really adapt myself to either party. The republican party has been to moderate for me lately, I am a true conservative and believe as such. I don't agree with the democratic party, especially now as they have gone far to the left.

I agree with the libertarian party on a lot of issues as well. Guess you could call me independent, but mostly leaning to the right, if not far right.

If I may chime in here, there are a lot more opinions out there than just two so I really do not like the term "bipartisan." As far as I, and many other people out there, are concerned the two majour political parties of which the term bipartisan implies are not really all that different ideologically. One of my favourite analogies to modern politics is "p arguing with q."

I could go on and on about the way the deck is stacked against independents and minour parties, and their candidates in this country. I just want to point out that many times there are more than just a couple of solutions to one problem.

Also, sometimes people that come from totally different points of view can come to the same solution. If one were to take some time and look at the ideas that are ignored or pooh-poohed by the "experts" and how people of very different ideologies outside the mainstream all agree.

I will never forget the "debate" I had in 2006 against my Green opponent for US Senate, and how despite the best attempts by the moderator to get us to fight we sort of tag-teamed the establishment positions and explained our similar positions. MPR never expected a progressive and a paleoconservative/libertarian to have so much common ground. There was no point in the two of us fighting on-air, we were interested in two totally different blocks of voters and using the airtime to express our own positive visions for the US Senate.

[steveplym]

That seems the new way for our country now Greg. The achievers and people who were responsible and made good decisions are now going to be punished to help those who were less responsible. Eventually if we continue down this path there will be no benefit to working hard and saving your money. Eventually the people pulling the wagon are going to get sick of it and stop pulling and want to hop in, ride with the rest. .

I like most of the other people here bought a house I could afford (the bank told us we needed 20% down and based our application on our previous 3 years of verified earnings.) As we progressed up the ladder, we bought 2 more houses using our equity to reduce our mortgage needs. Never once paid late, refinanced once to put on siding and a roof, only bounced 3 checks in 40 years, never paid a late fee, used savings to pay for our daughter's college expenses, bought numerous cars and never had one reposessed. Made a little money on mutual funds, saved and invested wisely.

Our current mortgage will be paid off in three years or maybe sooner, we are both retired and not yet collecting Social Security. So what part of the government's hand outs are we getting??? Close your eyes whaddya see. But thanks for being a good citizen.

We will get a lien release and a nice thank you letter from the third holder of our second mortgage, and be on our way.

It just frosts my nads that those who corrupted, abused, and used the system will benifit from the Govts handouts to patch up thier screwups while you and I and the rest who played by the rules get to BOHICA one more time. ( Bend over Here it Comes Again )

Just once I'd like to see the honest, hardworking stand up folks get their 15 minutes in the sun.

Want me to stimulate the economy, give me a check to pay off half the rest of my house payments, and I will use what I save each month to go play and buy stuff to do my part.

Honest I will use the money to pay the mortgage. Even though the bank doesn't deserve another penny.

Get ready, assume the position. That's it, feet shoulder width apart, bend forward at the waist and relax. Oh yea, you may fell some discomfort or a slight pinch.......

[Norm's Coupe]

When talking about the banks giving out home loans as Greg mentioned, people should have never taken the banks word on what the person could afford. Even when the banks did verify earnings, they always used both the husbands and wife's combined income to qualify them for that amount. I've always said, you should not take out a loan for more than what you can afford on one income. That's the way we've always done it. That way, you can save and/or spend the other income free and clear. If you use both and lose one, you then can't keep up with your bills.

That said, I guess the real problem was the banks started giving out those home loans solely based on what the individual put on the application. So....people started saying they made $100,000 per year when they only made $20,000. Then the bank gave them loans without verifying their incomes for over $200,000, and of course they couldn't make the payments. We had one woman here locally that was on welfare and the bank gave her a loan to buy a house (2 flat) for about $40,000 in a poor neighborhood. She only had to make real small payments. Then she used that house as equity to buy another one. Before you know it, she had several houses she had bought to rent out. That's all good, but...........she then couldn't keep up the payments when the interest rate went up. How much money did this woman owe on all these buildings in the end. Close to a million bucks when they foreclosed on all the buildings. So........as someone else mentioned, it's greed on both sides of the fence. Both the people and the banks.

[Joe Flanagan]

I recommend a heavy dose of PB Blaster. That ought to fix it.

[eric wissing]

Norm, you are right about the "greed" on both sides. I think I would call it a desire of monetary opportunitism. people thought that they better get on the band wagon and get a house before the rates and prices would rise. The banks are not local but national competitors.

Interest rates are too low. That is why people are looking for that little edge, the 1/2 % of better return. Thus credit defauts and other crazy financial instruments.

The original posting was about Ford being the only smart one. I would say yes. They hired someone from outside of the auto field. They have a bit more cash so they had the luxury of saying no. You can not take a large sum of money and not expect there to be conditions. People are upset about the interference from the Federal Government. We have even had Ayn Rand advocates. I would not want to live in her world. There is a lot of anger on the board. Maybe some healthy venting. Everyone wants to blame somebody. I think we need Pogo. "I have seen the enemy and he is us" .

We are in pretty good shape as a nation. There are no bread lines. There isn't a massive wave of crime. This stability comes from our government and its institutions. We do not have bloody battles in the streets like post world war I in Germany because of a weak government. We make trade offs. We give up a little to get a lot. We still get to vote, we can live where we want to, work at our chosen job, and your family is your own. Eric

[greg g]

Ford also reacted earlier by closing underperforming dealerships. We have lost about 5 Ford and 3 Lincoln Mercury dealerships in the last three years.

The local LM store was bought back by Ford. They only moved about 9 to 12 new cars per month. Small family owned place, now going to be a Walgreens, brings our drugstore count to 6 with in a 4 mile radius, not counting the wally worlds and pharmacies in grocery stores, but hey its progress.

So it seems ford had its finger on the pulse a bit better then GM and Chrys.

looks like the Focus ( thanks Ford of Europe) is a much more succesfull brand than the Caliber and the Cobalt/G5 platforms, and the Fusion platform (say, isn't that a Mazda) sell better than the Malibu/G6 and the Avenger Sebring deal.

[Young Ed]

This kinda fits the topic:

Dear President Obama,

Thank you for helping my neighbors with their mortgage payments. You know the ones down the street, who in the good times refinanced their house several times and bought SUV's, ATV's, RV's, a pool, a big screen TV, two Wave Runners and a Harley. But I was wondering, since I am paying my mortgage and theirs, could you arrange for me to borrow the Harley now and then?

P.S. They also need help with their credit cards, when do you want me to start making those payments?

P.P.S. I almost forgot - they didn't file their income tax return this year. Should I go ahead and file for them or will you be appointing them to cabinet posts?

[T120]

I hear you Young Ed,..Also of that generation and mindset that when you bought something, the idea was to pay for it (yourself).

[Young Ed]

Sometimes all this stuff makes me wonder why I worked by a$$ off to buy a house at 23 years old. I did get some help from my family to put 20% down but they also certainly didn't do it for me either. And when the mortgage lady was explaining all my options I was smart enough to realize the super low adjustable rate could pretty much only go up so why would I want that??

[steveplym]

I did the same thing Ed. Just glad I got that fixed rate mortgage.

Funny, when I had trouble making my house payment the wife and I got second jobs and had to start selling some of the things we have around the house to make the payments. I didn't go to the government and ask for a handout.

[Don Coatney]

brings our drugstore count to 6 with in a 4 mile radius, not counting the wally worlds and pharmacies in grocery stores, but hey its progress.

Drugstores. My guess is there are at least a dozen within 5 miles of my house. Why? Dumb question. Where is the money to be made today. Health care bull **** is where. Guess this is fodder for another thread that I dont have time to open right now.

[Norm's Coupe]

Drugstores. My guess is there are at least a dozen within 5 miles of my house. Why? Dumb question. Where is the money to be made today. Health care bull **** is where. Guess this is fodder for another thread that I dont have time to open right now.

We have three Walgreens stores within about a 5 mile stretch by us too. You ask. "Why"? I can't answer that either. In fact many health insurance companies today want you to go through their warehouses for ordering your prescriptions. I'm not on any medication myself but the wife takes a couple on a regular basis. We have to order a 90 day supply from the drug warehouse the insurance company has. Prices are a little cheaper that way. But.......if we go to Walgreens, etc. for just one prescription they do pay for it. But.......we get a letter saying that we are supposed to order through the warehouse next time around.

[greg g]

Yep, with my heart condition I am on 6 mantanence perscriptions that I have to order from a mail order place in 90 day lots. My wife has two. Since her insurance company's co pays are so reasonable, I gues I can't complain. For other as needed stuff from the Doctor, we used to go to the local family run place for the last 15 years. then they got bought out by a Rite Aide a national chain. they are across the where the Walgreens will be. Probably stil go there by force of habit.