52Coronet Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Hello there, I've lurked for a while but finally signed up for an account. I've got a 4-door Coronet that I'm really excited to get on the road. It sat for 30 years inside, and it didn't need a whole lot. I flushed the gas tank, changed all the fluids, rebuilt the wheel cylinders up front (still have to get a puller to get the rear drums off), rebuilt the Stromberg, and repaired the flintstone floors. Since the hurricane pushed TROG back a week I decided to spend some quality time addressing the ignition system. Now, I am a younger dude, and points are still slightly alien to me. I have a couple old bikes, but they all have EI in them now. I understand basically how the points work in theory, but I need some help troubleshooting. Plus, I'm not that great of a mechanic anyway. The points actually looked pretty nice when I opened the distributor, so I just gapped them and checked for spark. Nothing. I replaced the ignition coil, still nothing. I took a test light and hooked it up from the Neg. battery terminal to the ignition coil. On both the + and - terminals coil terminals, the light pulses. Hooked up to the lead that goes to the distributor, the light does nothing. Does this mean anything? My question is, what are my next troubleshooting steps? I feel like this is a pretty basic problem, but again, I've never worked on a points system before. I know everything up to the solenoid is good, but from there I'm not totally sure. All the electrics are still 6v + ground. Any advice on how to proceed would be welcome. I think it's ready to run once it has spark. Also, am I the only person who wonders why they stuffed the distributor all the way down there on the flathead 6 engines? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar_earl Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Much easier to pull the distributor than try to work on it in the engine. A bad condenser can cause no/weak spark. Those can go bad anytime. Earl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 When you adjusted the points how did you get the distributor cam on the high point so the points are fully open? Bump the starter? Rock the car while in gear? Use the fan blade? As has been mentioned distributor work is much easier with the distributor out of the car. Do you have a service manual for your car? You can even spin the distributor with a drill motor and use a dwell meter to set the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52Coronet Posted October 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Much easier to pull the distributor than try to work on it in the engine. A bad condenser can cause no/weak spark. Those can go bad anytime. Earl Yeah, I didn't want to pull the whole thing until it was absolutely necessary. I've got a new condenser lying around- what the simplest way to check for a faulty condenser? I assume when it goes bad it doesn't pass the voltage to ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52Coronet Posted October 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) When you adjusted the points how did you get the distributor cam on the high point so the points are fully open? Bump the starter? Rock the car while in gear? Use the fan blade? As has been mentioned distributor work is much easier with the distributor out of the car. Do you have a service manual for your car? You can even spin the distributor with a drill motor and use a dwell meter to set the points. Yes, I used the starting motor, which seems to work perfectly (although turning the fan also works). Gapped to 20 thou. I do have the factory service manual, that has been helpful but doesn't have a whole lot in there on troubleshooting no spark situations. Edited October 4, 2015 by 52Coronet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar_earl Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Yeah, I didn't want to pull the whole thing until it was absolutely necessary. I've got a new condenser lying around- what the simplest way to check for a faulty condenser? I assume when it goes bad it doesn't pass the voltage to ground? I'm a diesel guy so I couldn't tell you. Lol I just know they are cheap to replace and that they do go bad. Especially when sitting. If money isn't tight, I'd do a full complete tune-up. I believe they use make condenser testers. Earl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 This is a good read. Possibly something for folks to bookmark. Just keep in mind that systems can be (+) ground, or (-) ground. Adjust the read accordingly. http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/gas-engines/understanding-breaker-point-ignition-systems.aspx?PageId=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Earls suggestion to pull the dissy is a good one, however just make sure B4 undoing anything to make a mark exactly where the dissy body and dissy shaft/rotor button are pointing..scribe a line on the body/block and rotor button/body........once the dissy is out its a good idea to replace/redo the points, condensor, rotor button, check vaccum line/advance, new leads, plugs and cap.........also this is the type of puller I use to get mopar rear drums off.........you cannot ever have too big a puller.........btw welcome to the best Mopar forum, these guys are great.........andyd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Your problem could just be corrosion on the two point contacts. Most common cause of no spark on a car not driven often. The ignition points MUST BE CLEAN and I mean very clean. Clean them with a point file and pull a piece of thick paper through them if doing this with the points and distributor still in the car. Or just replace them. Replacement condensors sold over the counter might not last a month or even work... Chinese junk. Best way as mentioned is to remove the distributor so you can see well what you are doing. The two little wires in the distributor need to be in tip top shape to and of factory wire and insulation to last and work well electrically. Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52Coronet Posted October 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Alright, I gave it a shot and simply cannot remove either screws holding the condenser in with the dizzy installed. So it looks like I'll be pulling the distributor anyway. I have a whole new points setup anyway I can put in. I'll give it a shot and report back, being sure to mark everything before I pull it off. Edited October 5, 2015 by 52Coronet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conroe Powdercoating Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) install a pertronix ei and worry no more. Edited October 5, 2015 by Conroe Powdercoating 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 During you time at swap meets llok for a NOS Breaker Plate for your car. I like these because they have the points condenser and all the small wires setup. It is easier to install an new breaker plate as a unit. Then you can rebuild the old one and have as a spare or get a couple of Breaker plates. Have one in the car and one at home. Rich HArtung Desoto1939@aol.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46Ply Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 I can also tell you that even if the points look good, make sure they aren't some of those cheap Chinese junk parts. I learned this the hard way, after adjusting points at least three times before finally replacing them with quality parts. I like Rich's idea about replacing the breaker plate. Not sure I've seen this idea expressed here before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52Coronet Posted October 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. Rich, I think you are probably right about replacing the breaker plate. Haven't had time to get the distributor out yet, but I can't imagine how one would get the screw holding the condenser lead out without removing the plate. install a pertronix ei and worry no more. I am open to this idea. What is involved in the swap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) I just put a Pertronix igniter and coil in my 47 DeSoto. Of course, take the distributor out. Supposedly, you can mark the minor adjustment to get the dizzy back in the right place. The condenser, points, and related wire come out. The ground wire from the breaker plate to the body can stay. The igniter sits where the capacitor sat. The eccentric screw was in the way. I couldn't figure how to get that screw out, so I Dremeled part of the head off. Two wires have to come out of the dizzy. I cut a small chunk out of the grommet, and removed the big screw where the wire to the coil attached.The black wire goes back to the power source (ignition switch, etc.) and the black-white wire goes to the (-) post of the coil. Then a wire goes from the (+) post to ground. This is different from the conventional ignition, where the points interrupt the grounded side of the primary circuit. My semi-automatic transmission requires a wire from the PRI post of the transmission relay to the dizzy, to interrupt the ignition momentarily, for upshifting. For the Pertronix, per their technical advice, I had to place a 7-ohm resistor in series, and run the wire to the (-) post, not the (+) post. I tried to get the dizzy back in its original position, but it was a bit off time, so the car ran poorly, but it wouldn't quit. It would almost die, but fire up again. The Pertronix must have been working overtime. Apparently the dizzy was too far advanced. I retarded it some, and the engine runs fine, aside from maybe a sticking valve. (It's always something.) The vacuum runs about 15 now, instead of 19, but that may be because I also replaced the PCV valve, which had become mostly plugged. And the needle has a small bounce, probably from the sticking valve. So, I think I'm happy with the Pertronix. I have hedged my bet, and boxed up the conventional points and coil, with instructions of what goes where. I hear that this is a wise precaution. Edited October 7, 2015 by DonaldSmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 52 Cornet: The r and R of a breaker plate is very simple. The best way to do this is a suggested is to remove the entire dizzy out of the engine block. Put a mark on the block with some chalk to mark the orientation of a specific point on the dizzy to the block. Witht he dizzy cap off also put some tape to orientate the position of the rotor before removing the dizzy. Remove the dizzy from the block assuming you have disconnected the vacuum advance line also. Now remove the rotor put the dizzy in a vise looking intot he dizzy you will see the breaker plate it will be held in by two slotted screws. You will also have to unscrew the braket that holds the vacuum advance to the side of the dizzy. Undo the Vac Adv and lift the arm off the point that is attached to the breaker plate. Now undo the two screws that hold the breaker plate in plate keep these screws. Pu the new breaker plate into the body of the dizzy and alight the holes so that they screws can be screwed back into the dizzy. Attache the Vac Advance. Now set the points according to you manual. reset the location of the mark on the dissy body that you did when the rotor was on the cam. Since you dizzy shat is slotted then slide the unit back down the opening in the block and rotate the the unit and make sure you are all the way intot he slot and make sure you are orientated to the mark that you made on the block prior to removing the dizzy. Tight the nut that holds the dizzy tight but so that you have so play so you can adjust. Use your timing light and start the car and then the adjust the advance or retard as needed based on the timing mark on the lower pully. Rich Hartung Serd me you spepcif car model and I will look in the Autolite catalog and tellyou the correct Breaker Plate assem,bly also sen me the Dizzy model IGSxxxx or IGTxxxx. this is needed so I can tellyou the correct info. Rich HArtung Desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 the breaker plate for your car with the IAT-4011 dist is Autolite breaker plate IAT-2004RA rich Hartung desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52Coronet Posted October 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 After a busy weekend at TROG I was able to come home and replace the points (and gap), condenser, and coil, and..... still no spark. I'm pretty surprised that there's nothing. Motor turns over good, everything else seems good... what are some further ways I could troubleshoot this? I even put my finger on the plug and had someone else turn the motor over to make sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptwothree Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Make sure the points are not only opening but closing when the distributor shaft turns. Use an ohm meter, with the key off turn the engine by hand, or with a 6 or 12 volt test light with the key on. If good, change out the condenser after that, the coil.....even new ones go bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52Coronet Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Okay, I think I found the source of the problem. Car has what appears to be a two position ignition switch, simple off/on (three terminals on the back). There's no momentary position to engage the starter it seems, so I've had to jump the right terminal and the bottom terminal (looking at it from behind the dash) to spin the starting motor. I thought that would be fine, but....I think it is flowing power to the starter solenoid, but not the ignition circuit. Is this possible? Been over everything twice with the points.... Thinking a correct off/on/momentary switch will solve the problem. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 the car should be key start in 52...check to see if you have a generic switch in there.....go back to key start by changing you ignition switch with a correct style generic from the big box store..usually about 6 bucks at swap meets..10-12 at the big box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52Coronet Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Should have been more specific- it's got a key, but doesn't seem to have the momentary switch for starting. I know this was the last guy's daily driver (30 years ago) though so I'm not sure why it seems a little funky. Last I checked on Napa it was $250 for a replacement ignition switch for this one, but I'll swing by Advance and get a generic one to test this hypothesis tomorrow. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 It sounds like you need a separate starter button, or a later style ignition switch. My 47 Mopar has a separate starter button, and a key-switch with OFF vertical, ACC counterclockwise, and IGN or "coil" clockwise. The IGN position also powers the ACCessories. According to the wiring diagram, I can run the starter in the ACC position, but without ignition. Why, I don't know. The later models have the key switch with the momentary "start" position. I presume that by "two position switch" you mean ACC and IGN in addition toa center OFF. One terminal gets the hot power, one connects power to accessories, and one connects power to the coil. It sounds like the older type of switch, like on my car. I don't know how jumping these terminals would power the starter solenoid. Maybe it's time to trace the wiring. A wiring diagram should help. Or better yet, disconnect the suspect wires at the solenoid and coil and run new jumpers. Run the first jumper from an always hot source, like the ammeter, or if under the hood to the hot post of the battery. Run the second jumper to the coil. Run the third jumper to the starter solenoid post that makes the starter crank. (Of course, disconnect the existing wires at the coil and solenoid post, to eliminate any shorts or improperly crossed connections. Bypassing the ignition switch, connect the hot jumper and the coil jumper, and your coil should be live, when the ground is completed at the points. Connect the hot jumper to the solenoid jumper, and the starter should crank. Connect all three, and the engine should crank and fire up. If that works, run new wires to the ignition switch and to a separate starter button, or to the later style ignition switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pflaming Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Question: when an engine is shut and is not running, will the points be open, closed, or not consistant either way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 its like roulette....bet black or red but you playing against yourself if you bet both. I'll wager $1.00 on number 5 cylinder, closed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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