Bobacuda Posted December 3 Report Posted December 3 (edited) Glad the photo helped. I discovered those 2 bolts years ago, totally by accident, so you are pretty much discovering them the way I did. You don’t need to separate the manifolds, unless the exhaust leaks there or you decide to make sure the heat riser works (not a big deal for those for those of us in the south). If you try to separate them, bet on them breaking, then you get to take the manifolds to the machine shop to get them out so you can bolt them back together. The exhaust pipe sometimes extends 1/2” or so into the manifold (NOT factory pipe). I had one like that - had to twist, wiggle and torque the manifold to separate it from the pipe. I used WD 40 along the gasket line between the manifolds and the block. I tapped thin, wide blade screw drivers in several locations, more WD40, eventually got it loose. MAKE SURE all bolts holding the manifolds to the block are out, AND don’t try to pry in just one location. Edited December 3 by Bobacuda 1 Quote
JBNeal Posted December 3 Report Posted December 3 watch out for this'n on the intake manifold...it'll getcha 👀 1 1 Quote
LazyK Posted December 3 Report Posted December 3 There are 13 bolts total.failure to get them all will result in a broken manifold. 1 1 Quote
Merle Coggins Posted December 4 Report Posted December 4 You should be sure all 13 fasteners have been removed. That's the best way to know you have them all, count them. Those 3 that Bobacuda and JBNeal show are easily missed as they are a bit hidden. Also those 2 longer studs that go through the exhaust manifold, shown by Bobacuda, can sometimes bond themselves to the manifold. When this happens you'll have to work a bit to break that bond without breaking the manifold. 1 Quote
ktb Posted December 4 Author Report Posted December 4 Thank you all for the helpful advice. Yep, I had missed the hidden center nut (#13) under the intake manifold too. Today I finally got the manifolds removed. I had to separate the exhaust flanges with a hacksaw because the center edges were stuck together (almost like welded). With the manifold out of the way, I spent a while scraping gunk off the right side of the block. I'm noticing some water intrusion/corrosion issues. Three of the exhaust manifold studs came out of the block, and the furthest rear exhaust stud hole leaked a good amount of coolant - not sure if this is a head gasket issue or something else. Also looked like water had gotten into the valve spring areas - small puddle of water in the rearmost part, and lots of rust flakes throughout. The front part of the camshaft(?) looked rusty through the viewing window, and there were many rust flakes on the insides of the valve covers. I will need to go back and read previous advice about freeing stuck valves. It's looking like I will need to remove the oil pan and head as well. Some photos below. By the way, what is the pivoting drain tube for in the lower right rear corner of the block? I also need to learn what a heat riser is. Quote
Bobacuda Posted December 4 Report Posted December 4 The tube is the “breather.” It allows gases to exit the “oil pan area.” Modern cars run those gases back to the combustion side of the engine through the positive crankcase ventilation (the PCV and the line to the air filter on a modern car). The heat riser flap allows exhaust gases to warm that big square area under the carb. Makes the engine warm up faster. When the engine is warm, the flap closes off the exhaust gas from the bottom of the intake. I have owned 5 Mopars with flatheads. During that time my folks had 2 more. Only 1 had a functional heat riser. It’s not that big of a deal here in south central Texas, as long as the flap keeps the hot gas off the intake. The heat flap in my ‘53 was frozen in the position that always warmed the manifold. I finally broke the flap off, then I put a thin piece of metal (cut from a “r panel” roofing panel between the manifolds, permanently keeping exhaust from warming the bottom of the intake. 1 Quote
JBNeal Posted December 5 Report Posted December 5 2 hours ago, ktb said: ... ... Looks like some good progress here...I see enough dry valve lifter surfaces to confirm that valve train is locking up the engine. I have seen valve lifter areas coated with sludge, so much that it had to be scooped out. Them flakes looked like dried up oil. Overall, this valve lifter area looks OK, could be a lot worse. Now you can see what more needs to be soaked with penetrants. If them valve springs have pits or other corrosion, they'll probably need replacing at some point. •The manifold studs penetrate the water jacket, so coolant loss here during disassembly is normal. •That puddle of water near the draft tube could be condensation, as that area is right next to the outside air. •Beware: that valve area sludge may have lead in it. additional information - heat riser advisor additional information - draft tube to partial PCV conversion 1 Quote
ktb Posted December 5 Author Report Posted December 5 (edited) 43 minutes ago, JBNeal said: Looks like some good progress here...I see enough dry valve lifter surfaces to confirm that valve train is locking up the engine. I have seen valve lifter areas coated with sludge, so much that it had to be scooped out. Them flakes looked like dried up oil. Overall, this valve lifter area looks OK, could be a lot worse. Now you can see what more needs to be soaked with penetrants. If them valve springs have pits or other corrosion, they'll probably need replacing at some point. •The manifold studs penetrate the water jacket, so coolant loss here during disassembly is normal. •That puddle of water near the draft tube could be condensation, as that area is right next to the outside air. •Beware: that valve area sludge may have lead in it. additional information - heat riser advisor additional information - draft tube to partial PCV conversion Thank you for the encouraging assessment! Is the valve lifter what you can see through the viewing window above the fuel pump cutout? Do I need to spray PB Blaster through those windows and all over the valve springs? Edit: Sorry, the valve lifters are the cylinders underneath each valve spring, right? And the lobe I was looking at through the viewing window is part of the camshaft? Edited December 5 by ktb Quote
Bobacuda Posted December 5 Report Posted December 5 The part of the cam you see though the fuel pump opening is the lobe that activates the fuel pump. Brake cleaner, steel bush, Gunk, pressure wash, PB Blaster the heck out it all. Look at the attached image. The valve spring is at the base of the valve stem. The tappets ride on the cam. As the engine crank turns, the timing gears and chain turn the cam. The lobes on the cam rise, causing the tappets to rise, opening valves. The valve’s stem passes through the valve guide that keeps them lined up. As the lobes rotate to the low position, the valve springs return the valves to the closed position. The valves tend to stick in the guides, or the tappets stick. I think you can see valve stems through the manifold holes in the block. Blaster the heck out of them as well, Dont just try to turn the engine over one way - rock it back and forth. 1 Quote
ktb Posted December 9 Author Report Posted December 9 Update: I sprayed about half a can of PB Blaster on the valve lifters 2 days ago and tried to turn the engine over today. Two of the lifters moved up (from the front, they are the 1st and 3rd valves, which should be #1 exh and #2 int), revealing a shinier layer beneath. But the crank is nowhere near spinning. Picture below. I’m having difficulty rotating the crank in reverse, because the hand-starting nut loosens first, and I can’t get any movement with a pry bar on the ring gear. But at least a couple valves moved. Question: the tops of the lifters have two flat sides that could be turned by an open end wrench. Should I try to rotate the lifters with a wrench, or would that be bad? For now I just sprayed more PB Blaster and will try turning the crank again in a couple days. Quote
Dave72dt Posted December 9 Report Posted December 9 Not necessarily bad. Turning the tappet via the flats would give you an indication of any tappets being froze. You could also change the gap between tappet and valve on any that indicate the valves are closed using the adjusters. It would give you some working room to push up on those valves and maybe gain some crankshaft rotation. 1 Quote
moparfun Posted December 9 Report Posted December 9 I recall a while back Sniper commented on an old mechanics trick of using brake fluid on valves to free them up this might work on the lifters. Do you know if the lifters are locked up or is it the valves? I think I would try to isolate the problem then move forward. 1 Quote
Los_Control Posted December 9 Report Posted December 9 Just be aware, if you got the lifters to move a smidge, but not the crank .... could be a spun bearing and why the engine was parked. Legend has it, Grandpa Ed got drunk one night and was out Hot Rodding his 1951 Plymouth suburban and spun a bearing and locked the engine up. .... It happens. If the crank wont turn, you might want to start pulling the bearings. 1 Quote
ktb Posted December 9 Author Report Posted December 9 3 hours ago, Dave72dt said: Not necessarily bad. Turning the tappet via the flats would give you an indication of any tappets being froze. You could also change the gap between tappet and valve on any that indicate the valves are closed using the adjusters. It would give you some working room to push up on those valves and maybe gain some crankshaft rotation. Thanks Dave72dt, The tappets/lifters all spun without too much coaxing, so I'm guessing the problem is valve stems stuck in valve guides as several folks have suggested. I'll keep at it. Quote
ktb Posted December 10 Author Report Posted December 10 Would it help to get a valve spring compressor tool and manually lift on the valves? It looks like all of them are closed except the two that opened yesterday. Quote
JBNeal Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 That head needs to come off to inspect them combustion chambers before investing more resources into that engine...valves may be stuck, pistons might be stuck, or there could be a rat's nest in one of them bores 👀 2 Quote
ktb Posted December 10 Author Report Posted December 10 3 minutes ago, JBNeal said: That head needs to come off to inspect them combustion chambers before investing more resources into that engine...valves may be stuck, pistons might be stuck, or there could be a rat's nest in one of them bores 👀 True, but if I could borrow a spring compressor for free, wouldn’t it make sense to get each valve moving and eliminate “valves stuck in guides” from the list? Quote
Bobacuda Posted December 10 Report Posted December 10 Shine a bright light into each of the openings for manifolds. If I remember right, you will be able to see the valve stems entering the valve guides. You can also feel it with your finger. Put the extension tube on your blaster and soak the valve stem and the top of the valve guide. Break down and take the head off. You must know what’s going on inside of there. You can lightly apply taps to the top-center of valves, etc. Ignorance is not bliss… 2 Quote
ktb Posted December 11 Author Report Posted December 11 5 hours ago, Bobacuda said: Shine a bright light into each of the openings for manifolds. If I remember right, you will be able to see the valve stems entering the valve guides. You can also feel it with your finger. Put the extension tube on your blaster and soak the valve stem and the top of the valve guide. Break down and take the head off. You must know what’s going on inside of there. You can lightly apply taps to the top-center of valves, etc. Ignorance is not bliss… I did this and have sprayed PB Blaster on the exposed valve stems. Some of them you can see the oil seep down through the valve springs, others you can't. I'll try compressing the springs and if no crankshaft movement will remove the head. 1 Quote
ggdad1951 Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 11 hours ago, Bobacuda said: Break down and take the head off. You must know what’s going on inside of there. You can lightly apply taps to the top-center of valves, etc. Ignorance is not bliss… Basically you need to do this. If something is stuck, taking the head offf will tell you way more than guessing and poking at it. It's not the end of the world to take the head off. 3 Quote
ktb Posted December 11 Author Report Posted December 11 I just ordered a head gasket set, so there's no turning back now. 😂 For anyone else in the market, Fel-Pro part # HS 7564 C (Cylinder Head Gasket Set) is $41.49 with free shipping online at Advance Auto Parts. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/flpro-cylinder-head-gasket-set-hs-7564-c/19782224-P 1 Quote
JBNeal Posted December 11 Report Posted December 11 additional information - flathead valve spring compressor 1 Quote
ktb Posted December 11 Author Report Posted December 11 31 minutes ago, JBNeal said: additional information - flathead valve spring compressor Thanks Brian, The one loaner I could find that looked promising was this one from Advance Auto Parts. They special ordered it just so I could have a loaner. 😊 https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/powerbuilt-tools-loaner-tool-valve-spring-compressor-kit-648615/9150012-P Quote
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