New B-3-B owner with some basic questions

[ktb]

2 hours ago, JBNeal said:

B-3 FD has the viscous coupling and a dry clutch and pressure plate.

OK, so the prybar on the ring gear trick (to turn over the engine) is still in play?  I guess I need to learn more about clutches, too. 😑 I got confused when I read that the crankshaft is bolted to the Fluid Drive coupler which has an attached driven plate/"flywheel" which is bolted to the clutch + pressure plate; if it's all bolted together, where is the disconnect?  And I guess the answer is the clutch friction disc, which may be stuck to the driven plate/"flywheel" and could be freed by manually turning the ring gear on the FD coupler...

 

I'm getting there, inch by inch.  Thank you, people!

[Bobacuda]

Ktb - not totally sure of your question, but I’ll take a shot. If your clutch is frozen to the “flywheel,” you simply start unbolting the clutch. When the engine is not running, the engine is not driving the flywheel. So, the FD coupler doesn’t move, but you can turn the clutch, unless the trans is frozen or in gear.  Pull the trans and the clutch and “flywheel” spin freely. 
 

For example, when I park my FD truck on a hill, I have to make damn sure the e-brake is working good, or the truck rolls off. Once it gets about 10 mph, the trans spins the clutch and flywheel to the point the engine will start turning over. 
 

The good news, you can pull it to start it. The bad news, if your brake does not hold and you did not block the wheel, you get to chase your truck down the hill, jump on the running board, open the door, get in, and step on the brakes- don’t ask how I know…

 

When I needed to turn the engine over, I pulled the spark plugs and put the big socket on the nut that holds the pulley to the crank. If you can’t turn the engine over, pull the plugs and give each cylinder some Marvel Myster Oil and let soak. If it starts to turn by hand and stops, good chance a valve or two is stuck in the guides. If you think this is happening, pull the valve covers and watch to see valves move when turning it over.  (And it turned my photo upside down.)

 

Edited November 12 by Bobacuda

[JBNeal]

additional information - Fluid Drive demonstration

[ktb]

Thanks Bobacuda and JBNeal!

 

I really don't know if the engine is stuck or not.  It rained 5" here, so I'm still waiting for the ground to dry up.  I did replace all the spark plugs and squirted Marvel's Mystery Oil into each cylinder a few days ago.  My uncle tried turning the fan by hand, but it wouldn't budge, and then I started worrying it may be stuck in gear, but I really have no idea.  I will try to turn the engine by hand using the crankshaft pulley nut or crawl underneath and remove the clutch cover. 

[ktb]

I also spent some time getting familiar with wheels with oval valve stem holes.  I took the original wheels to Discount Tire to replace the old tube tires with tubeless, and they used standard round rubber valve stems.  One of the tires would only hold air for half a day, so I took it back, and they concluded that the valve stem hole in the wheel had "wallered" or rusted into an oval shape, and that the wheel would no longer work.  I looked at the wheel when I got it back, and the valve hole definitely looked purposefully oval, so I took it to a mom & pop tire shop, and fortunately he knew about these types of wheels and had an oval valve adapter that could be used to seal a tubeless valve.  The other three tires are holding air with the round base valve stems, but I ordered some of these to have on hand and am tempted to have them swapped in preemptively:

 

https://ts-warehouse.com/products/tr501ov-1-1-2-brass-clamp-in-oval-tubeless-tire-truck-valve-stem-pack-of-4

 

Also available on eBay:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383164156541

 

You learn something new every day with these amazing machines... 😊

 

Edited November 12 by ktb

[Bobacuda]

Ktb - you got lucky on the rims.  My truck’s 16” rims were rusted  inside beyond belief. I wanted to use my original hub caps, so I sent the rims to the “Wheel Master” (I think - it’s been a while) and they removed my centers and put them in new barrels. Not cheap, but much safer than when I started. 

[ktb]

On 11/11/2024 at 11:59 PM, Bobacuda said:

Ktb - not totally sure of your question, but I’ll take a shot. If your clutch is frozen to the “flywheel,” you simply start unbolting the clutch. When the engine is not running, the engine is not driving the flywheel. So, the FD coupler doesn’t move, but you can turn the clutch, unless the trans is frozen or in gear.  Pull the trans and the clutch and “flywheel” spin freely. 
 

For example, when I park my FD truck on a hill, I have to make damn sure the e-brake is working good, or the truck rolls off. Once it gets about 10 mph, the trans spins the clutch and flywheel to the point the engine will start turning over. 
 

The good news, you can pull it to start it. The bad news, if your brake does not hold and you did not block the wheel, you get to chase your truck down the hill, jump on the running board, open the door, get in, and step on the brakes- don’t ask how I know…

 

When I needed to turn the engine over, I pulled the spark plugs and put the big socket on the nut that holds the pulley to the crank. If you can’t turn the engine over, pull the plugs and give each cylinder some Marvel Myster Oil and let soak. If it starts to turn by hand and stops, good chance a valve or two is stuck in the guides. If you think this is happening, pull the valve covers and watch to see valves move when turning it over.  (And it turned my photo upside down.)

 

I’m still struggling to get the engine to turn over by hand. Trying to turn the FD coupler ring gear with a prybar bent the prybar. Turning the hand crank starting nut with a 1-3/4” socket, 1/2” ratchet and extensions, and a 5-ft cheater pipe turned the crank nut slightly but finally broke one of the extensions. I have poured 1-qt of Marvel’s Mystery Oil into the spark plug holes over a couple weeks. Now I’m thinking I’ll get some better penetrating oil (maybe Kroil; I’m open to suggestions), a beefier 1/2” extension, and a true breaker bar to use the cheater pipe on. It may be that I need to open the valve covers to see what’s going on there. As far as I know, the engine wasn’t seized before it sat for 26 years, but this has been discouraging. 

Edited November 22 by ktb

[Merle Coggins]

If it's been sitting for 20+ years many things can happen. Moisture can get into the cylinders and rust the rings to the cylinder walls. And if it gets bad enough there'll be a layer of rust scale build up on cylinder walls that would need to be sanded down before anything will be able to move. Also, the valve stems can get rusted to the guides making it so that the cam can't rotate. Worse case scenario both of these have happened.

 

When I acquired my truck someone had already removed the head, likely in an attempt to 'unstick' the engine. The cylinders were filled with a mixture of who-knows-what. I pulled the engine and laid it on it's side. From there I could remove the oil pan and all of the bearing caps. Then I could pull the crank out the bottom. I could then use a block of wood and a BFH (Big F---ing Hammer) to drive the pistons down slightly. That gave room to get a flapper wheel sanding drum in there to remove the majority of the rust scale. Then another block of wood and said BFH from the bottom to drive the pistons out. After that I focused on the cam. I was able to grip the cam sprocket with a large Channel Lock pliers and rotate it back and forth a little at a time, while spraying penetrating oil on the valve stems. Eventually I got them all pushed up enough to remove the cam and tappets. Then I could drive the valves closed with a hammer and remove the springs. With the springs removed I used a long punch to drive the valves up and out. 

 

My local machine shop was able to bore the cylinders, replace the valve guides and seats, and other misc. machine work, and now the engine runs great again. Hopefully yours isn't that extreme. 

[ktb]

10 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

If it's been sitting for 20+ years many things can happen. Moisture can get into the cylinders and rust the rings to the cylinder walls. And if it gets bad enough there'll be a layer of rust scale build up on cylinder walls that would need to be sanded down before anything will be able to move. Also, the valve stems can get rusted to the guides making it so that the cam can't rotate. Worse case scenario both of these have happened.

 

When I acquired my truck someone had already removed the head, likely in an attempt to 'unstick' the engine. The cylinders were filled with a mixture of who-knows-what. I pulled the engine and laid it on it's side. From there I could remove the oil pan and all of the bearing caps. Then I could pull the crank out the bottom. I could then use a block of wood and a BFH (Big F---ing Hammer) to drive the pistons down slightly. That gave room to get a flapper wheel sanding drum in there to remove the majority of the rust scale. Then another block of wood and said BFH from the bottom to drive the pistons out. After that I focused on the cam. I was able to grip the cam sprocket with a large Channel Lock pliers and rotate it back and forth a little at a time, while spraying penetrating oil on the valve stems. Eventually I got them all pushed up enough to remove the cam and tappets. Then I could drive the valves closed with a hammer and remove the springs. With the springs removed I used a long punch to drive the valves up and out. 

 

My local machine shop was able to bore the cylinders, replace the valve guides and seats, and other misc. machine work, and now the engine runs great again. Hopefully yours isn't that extreme. 

Thanks again Merle, yes, I should probably count my blessings!

[Bobacuda]

First I removed the oil pan - about 1.5” to 2” of jellified goo. I pulled the oil pump and oil line (full of goo).  I cleaned all of that out, sprayed the internals with Gunk engine cleaner, then pressured washed it. After that, I used a paint brush to slosh diesel all over everything.
 

Next, I removed the valve covers and cleaned out the gunk. Used Gunk degreaser and the pressures washer, again.  After that I used brake cleaner for final cleaning, and followed that with copious amounts of PB-Blaster. 
 

I then pulled the head, no rust, so I cleaned out the exposed area of the cylinders with brake cleaner, followed by Blaster. 
 

When I tried turning it over, it would barely budge. At that time, I looked at the valves. Some were open, but their tappets were down. I used more Blaster and tapped the valves down. 
 

Lots of Blaster later, I was able to rock the crank back and forth and it finally broke loose. In my engine, it was valves seized to the guides that caused the problem. 

Edited November 21 by Bobacuda

[Young Ed]

I'd suggest pulling the head and swapping the MMO for ATF. You can also see if something is obviously wrong and it's not going to unstick. 

[JBNeal]

1 hour ago, ktb said:

I’m still struggling to get the engine to turn over by hand. Trying to turn the FD coupler ring gear with a prybar bent the prybar. Turning the hand crank starter nut with a 1-3/4” socket, 1/2” ratchet and extensions, and a 5-ft cheater pipe turned the crank nut slightly but finally broke one of the extensions...

JEEBUS at this point I recommend changing your strategy, cuz that engine has an internal problem that has been touched on by others with too much crud binding up the mechanism.  I have rebuilt 2 flatheads without removing the engines, including replacing valve guides.  One truck I managed to do this without removing the dog house, just the hood and inner fenders.  As it was pointed out to me by old timer mechanics who have been long gone, local service stations could rebuild engines without removal as most vehicles built into the early 60s could be worked on without a lift or engine hoist.  These buggies had not been parked for decades, so all they typically needed were a ring job, valves ground and new guides, and a seal kit.

 

If ya cannot turn the ring gear, then surgery is required to determine what's binding before doing some damage.  Pulling the head and valve covers for sure, even the oil pan needs to come out cuz if that crank is crusty, it ain't gonna matter what's soaking the piston rings loose.

 

One of those flatheads that I rebuilt, drove that thing for 15yrs and then it started having what I think was a partially spun bearing due to a worn crankshaft that needed attention.  At the same time, I was flooded with work and chores and helping out the elderly neighbors with increasing mobility issues; 5yrs went by, I went to turn that ring gear on the engine that ran when parked, and it was a no-go...even sitting closed up with oil on every surface needed, it jammed up.  So it's on the overhaul list again, hopefully it'll just need crankshaft service and oversized bearings to rectify its problem, as it ran well and never smoked or leaked.

[888]

I would try a 50/50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid in the cylinders to try to free up the piston rings.  I once dragged home a Ford 8N that had been sitting in a barn for years with the plugs out.  I tried Kroil. Silikroil, PB, Liquid Wrench etc etc and nothing worked.  24 hours after using the acetone/ATF, the engine was freed up. 

 

You have to continually shake the container to keep it separated while spraying, I'd use a clear plastic spray bottle so you can see the mixture.  A guy I met through the Dodge Cummins forum told me about this and he learned it from a shop that worked on turbochargers.  Hope it works for you, it's always worked for me. 

[Bobacuda]

Got to agree, at this point pull the head, the oil pan and valve covers to get an idea of what is going on.  
 

I was given a stuck engine for the ‘51 farm truck - running when pulled about 5 yrs ago. The drain plug was pulled. If it wasn’t stuck, he thought I could just use it. 
 

I pulled the valve covers (sent that photo earlier), the head and the oil pan - about 1.5-2” if emulsified gunk. The gunk was in the oil intake and the pump. Will probably take several posts for photos if that engine. 
 

Bottom line, as stuck as your engine is, it’s going to need surgery. 

[Bobacuda]

[Bobacuda]

[ktb]

Thanks all, I filled the spark plug holes with about a gallon of 50/50 ATF/diesel on Saturday, so I’ll give the crank another try in a couple days before resorting to disassembly. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[Sniper]

On 11/7/2024 at 8:53 PM, ktb said:

Oh, and I'm in San Angelo, TX - how about you

Hey I'm in San Angelo as well. If you need some help or anything shoot me a message

[Los_Control]

On 11/11/2024 at 9:04 PM, ktb said:

And I guess the answer is the clutch friction disc, which may be stuck to the driven plate/"flywheel" and could be freed by manually turning the ring gear on the FD coupler...

I wish you luck with that.

I tore down a old Ford flathead engine, the disk was sealed to the flywheel so well that I ended up using a thin drywall knife and a small hammer to tap the knife between the disk and flywheel.

 

I had the engine/transmission on the ground and was preparing to put the engine on a stand to tear it apart .... so I had access to everything.

I had the pressure plate unbolted and tapped on it with a hammer to knock it loose .... nothing worked.

I had to use the thin knife to drive in and separate the individual parts.

 

On a side note, they were new when installed and look perfectly fine to put back into service .... no harm came to them ..... Boy. they were really stuck though.

 

San Angelo .... where all the beach bums live    I'm a hour North in Colorado city .... no beaches for me 

[Bobacuda]

It’s a Fluid Drive - the output side (clutch) of the fluid coupler will spin freely, even if the clutch is siezed to the “flywheel,” assuming trans is in neutral or removed. 
 

For example, if I park my FD truck on a hill, turn off the engine, and do not set the brake, it will roll away.

 

There are more gremlins in your truck than a seized clutch. The clutch part of the FD unit is not in play until the engine spins the input side fast enough to transfer power to the clutch side. Your gremlins are likely in the engine. 
 

Surgery required.  

[Bobacuda]

Check your valve train first.  These engines are well known for the valves seizing in the valve guides. I had 3 that were stuck.  Could not turn the engine over until I had that area cleaned out and drenched in PB Blaster. I had to pull the head and apply some tapping to get them loose. 

[ktb]

On 11/30/2024 at 3:47 PM, Bobacuda said:

Check your valve train first.  These engines are well known for the valves seizing in the valve guides. I had 3 that were stuck.  Could not turn the engine over until I had that area cleaned out and drenched in PB Blaster. I had to pull the head and apply some tapping to get them loose. 

Here’s where I’m at getting to the valve train. I assume I just whale on this manifold and pry it off? Or should I leave it alone and try to remove the valve covers underneath? I let the ATF/diesel concoction brew for a week, but the crank is no closer to turning. You can see the red juice level  in the intake manifold where the carburetor was. 
 

[Dave72dt]

How many nuts and bolts did you take out?  There's two underneath that's difficult to see.  Intake and exhaust come off together, exhaust pipe needs to be unbolted as well and DO NOT whale on it.  Cast iron exhaust manifolds are susceptible to cracks and good replacements are getting harder to find.  Be a bit cautious with your removal process.

Edited December 3 by Dave72dt

[Bobacuda]

The valve covers come off with the manifolds in place.  
 

There are two studs, sometimes bolts (I have seen both) that are difficult to see when working from the top. They are visible (thanks to mud daubers) in the attached photo.
 

Your probably have not removed those two bolts. Remove them, then gently pry and the old manifold gaskets will turn it all loose. 
 

Old Mopar mechanic told me to  pull the passenger wheel well, then jack it up, take off the wheel, then you can see and work on the valve train. BTW, it’s a bitch.
 

Find a cheap, handheld mirror to see the side without removing the wheel well or the engine.

Edited December 3 by Bobacuda

[ktb]

1 hour ago, Bobacuda said:

The valve covers come off with the manifolds in place.  
 

There are two studs, sometimes bolts…

Thank you Bobacuda, I was indeed oblivious to those two bolts (it’s almost as if you can see my mistakes remotely 😱).  Now we’re getting somewhere!  It looks like two of the four bolts connecting the manifolds together underneath are sheared off, so I’m trying to pry them off as one.  But the exhaust pipe gasket is not letting go just yet.