I need the truth, or a good lie may work .... school me on the condensers for points.

[Los_Control]

I installed a custom condenser and hooked it right to the coil .... not inside the distributor.

I have a known good working condenser inside the distributor but it is not connected.

 

 

So this is my question, is it OK to install a condenser to the coil like this?

 

The reason why I want to do this is a aftermarket built in USA condenser will not fit inside.

You need to stand on your head servicing the distributor or changing a condenser when it is inside the distributor .... I have a bad back and if I can keep it outside I would prefer this.

Adjusting the points is not terrible, just changing parts with the distributor installed is a PITA .... easier to remove it and work on it on the bench ..... I want my condenser here if it works.

 

Every since I installed the condenser here, I have been experiencing run issues .... I will let it run for a hour idling in the driveway ... then it just starts cutting out and dies.

Next time it ran a little less time and ran crappy and died .... now it does not want to start .... spark looks funny and I suspect a bad condenser.

 

What I'm wondering, do I just have a bad condenser and install another in it's place ..... Or is this a bad idea and I will continue to have issues with a good condenser?

 

 

[LazyK]

Location should work. My question would be is the size/rating (uF) correct for the application.

 

Edit

Also you have changed to 12 volt so that may affect the uF rating required for application.

To long since electronics 101 for me to remember.

Edited September 16 by LazyK

[TravisL17]

To me, putting the condenser there is electrically the same as inside the distributor. I doubt the added length of wire would be noticeable for what we're doing here. My question is whether the new location offers more heat exposure to the condenser. Also, the bracket it's mounted to looks painted, so make sure the body of the condenser has a good path to ground. 

[Los_Control]

5 minutes ago, TravisL17 said:

To me, putting the condenser there is electrically the same as inside the distributor. I doubt the added length of wire would be noticeable for what we're doing here. My question is whether the new location offers more heat exposure to the condenser. Also, the bracket it's mounted to looks painted, so make sure the body of the condenser has a good path to ground. 

Thanks @LazyK you are correct, I'm not positive on the values .... The condenser is a replacement for a factory GM dual point distributor that is commonly modified and used in flathead Ford V8's.  .... I do not know the value.

 

8 minutes ago, TravisL17 said:

To me, putting the condenser there is electrically the same as inside the distributor. I doubt the added length of wire would be noticeable for what we're doing here. My question is whether the new location offers more heat exposure to the condenser. Also, the bracket it's mounted to looks painted, so make sure the body of the condenser has a good path to ground. 

I want to dance up and down and sing Winner Winner chicken dinner.

The mounting clamp came un painted .... so I painted it. .... the coil bracket needed some surgical welding to make it usable .... I painted it.

I never once thought about a good ground for the condenser and am certain it does not have it.

 

That gives me something to do, I really can not proceed further until I make sure I have a good ground.

That would explain why it ran good but randomly died and then as the fresh bolt attaching it was losing the poor ground it had ... it just got worse.

 

Will be tomorrow but I will create a good ground for it and report back. ..... Thank you!

[Los_Control]

@TravisL17 I was out there at 6:30 am with a flashlight removing the condenser bracket and cleaned it up while drinking my coffee.

When it got daylight I put the bracket back on and it fired right up and ran really good ..... bad ground was the problem all along.

 

Your post was very helpful, Thanks again.

[TravisL17]

Glad you got it working! I trust you took the rest of the day off after the early morning win!

[Los_Control]

2 minutes ago, TravisL17 said:

Glad you got it working! I trust you took the rest of the day off after the early morning win!

 

🤣🤣🤣

Guaranteed ... Honestly it is like turning a page in a book and starting a new chapter.

I stopped working on it maybe October last year, Then in January  life just got in the way with family member health issue and was 4 months we put him in the ground .... then the wife car needed a engine installed .... that took me 110 days before I started the engine then been spending some time working out bugs because it sat for so long.

 

So almost a year later I get to say the wife car is done .... I spent some time on my daily driver Chebby truck ... Now I'm free to start working on the Dodge again .... I'm still trying to decide where to jump back in and what to do first. I was happy just to see it back in front of the garage.

 

[lostviking]

The condenser is there to protect the points, which is why it's mounted to the points, and not on the other end of a wire. The wire has inductance remember, the opposite effect to capacitance. Here's another opinion:

 

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/429248/in-a-points-ignition-system-should-the-condensercapacitor-be-attached-to-the

[Sniper]

Not a whole heck of a lot of inductance in a straight piece of wire. Many people confused chopped DC with AC they are not the same thing. Alternating current flows back and forth direct current flows One Direction so they behave differently inductors and inductance have very little effect on DC and the signal at your point is chopped DC it is not AC. Personally I don't think there's a big difference where you mount it

[lostviking]

Well, as the current tries to rise in a wire, the inductance of the wire resists. That's why there is a 90deg phase angle.

 

Might not matter, but it is something engineers at least think about....maybe too hard. At work I deal in mole hills, so sometimes we think about things that are in reality immaterial.

Edited September 18 by lostviking

[Los_Control]

Well I think I will leave it where it is at, then keep a eye on the points.

If the points show abnormal pitting or burning, then I would probably move it inside the distributor .... or if it causes other problems.

[Dave72dt]

How are you going to tell if it's doing anything different, worse, better or sooner or later than any of the other commercial condensers?  Do you have an increase in radio static?  That was a premise of one of the "experts" in that posted reference.  These vehicles are relatively simple and for some reason there's been a tendency to complicate them and repairs to them.

[Los_Control]

21 minutes ago, Dave72dt said:

How are you going to tell if it's doing anything different, worse, better or sooner or later than any of the other commercial condensers?  Do you have an increase in radio static?  That was a premise of one of the "experts" in that posted reference.  These vehicles are relatively simple and for some reason there's been a tendency to complicate them and repairs to them.

I think points have a certain degree or level of expected life span.

 

Since the discussion has turned to placement of condenser to best protect the points from a high spark ... closer to the points makes sense.

 

If it does not matter, for ease of future maintenance ... I prefer it by the coil.

 

If the points was getting a abnormal amount of spark, it would show up on the face of the points.

 

When I was a kid I had a 1969 Mustang fast back and I put a huge square yellow jacket high performance coil on it .... it looked cool.

I would burn out a set of points in 4-6 weeks .... after 3 or 4 sets of points I put the stock coil on and end of problem.

 

If I'm burning a set of points every 2 months ... thats abnormal wear and I would do something different to correct it .... I would first suspect the condenser location.

 

Because @Sniperis telling me what I want to hear .... I'm jumping on his bandwagon ....  @lostvikingis saying what I do not want to hear .... I'm sticking my fingers in my ears. 🤣🤣🤣

[Dave72dt]

Why not do an off the wall test and mount that condenser on the fender and see if it makes a difference.  At worst the truck may run poorly or cost you a set of points.

[Los_Control]

12 minutes ago, Dave72dt said:

Why not do an off the wall test and mount that condenser on the fender and see if it makes a difference.  At worst the truck may run poorly or cost you a set of points.

Good point .... Honestly I just want to get the truck on the road and licensed to become a driving project .... from that point on it will be a evolving project for the rest of my life.

 

So right now I just want something that works ..... with a bad ground it did not work ... I fixed that and it works now. .... Good enough for me.

I just have bigger fish to fry, do not want to get lost in the weeds on a simple condenser issue.

When it is actually on the road, I will want to do the /6 distributor conversion and eliminate points/condenser.

 

Same time I have a 318/3spd and a Rustyhope brake kit on site ..... I may not want to keep the 6 ??? I just need it to run for now.

[lostviking]

To be honest, I'm cutting straws. I only said it "might" affect points life. It won't affect the smoothness of the engine running. As far as radio interference...are you running resistive plug wires? That's where the radio issues come from. So long as you have a condenser at all, I don't see that as an issue much.

[Los_Control]

On 9/16/2024 at 5:48 PM, LazyK said:

Location should work. My question would be is the size/rating (uF) correct for the application.

@lostviking .... I guess I may be a band wagon jumper .... sneaking up to @LazyK bandwagon now.

After cleaning the ground it started and ran ok and I drove it in the driveway to move it into my work area .... I let it run for awhile and it died.

I was not sure how much gas was in it .... I finally had all the parts needed to connect the fuel filler tube and installed it and added 5 gallons of fuel.

Then it would not run again. It tried to start, sometimes it ran for 5-10 seconds .... it all started with this condenser.

 

I do not think the 6-12 volt matters, I have a ballast resistor on the fire wall that drops it down to 6V going to the coil ..... I added the ballast resistor the same time as the condenser .... 🤔 ..... I remember replacing one on a 1962 Chrysler for a no start issue.

 

To be honest I'm a little frustrated with it right now .... time to walk away and work on something else for awhile and think about it.

I do have a NOS condenser here I can connect and see if that corrects it .... I can just pull the distributor and connect the known good 25 year old condenser .... I need to research how to test a ballast resistor .... meantime I want to wire in the charging system.

I just bought a new battery a few days ago, new alternator, voltage regulator. Just needs wired up and a whole lot of battery draining going on trying to fix this issue.

 

[Los_Control]

So sometimes these threads go on and and sound like a lot of babble .... for me it makes me think.

 

@LazyK mentioned 6-12v difference. I spouted off I have a ballast resistor and should have 6V at the coil ... I just checked and have over 12V to the coil.

 

As far as I know it is a switched 12V wire from the ignition switch that supply power to the ballast resistor and 6 volt coming out going to the coil.

It seems my shiny new ballast resistor is not working and needs replaced. .... Possibly nothing to do with the condenser.

[lostviking]

Are you running a 12V coil? You should be if you are running a 12V electrical system.

[Los_Control]

7 minutes ago, lostviking said:

Are you running a 12V coil? You should be if you are running a 12V electrical system.

Yes .... maybe I'm making it more complicated then it needs to be .... I just figured it would work.

 

 

I order the ballast resister for a 1961 Chrysler and that is the product I get .... first one is from Rockauto .... Since last post I reversed the wires to see if the resister is directional .... no change, still 12V to the coil ..... So I ran down to Napa and they had the resister on the shelf .... same story 12 V to the coil.

 

Only thing I can think of is 2 bad ballast resister in a row .... I'm getting 12V going into the coil never checked what was coming out.

Unless I have the ballast resister wired wrong .... No idea where to go from here. Or best choices to bypass this kinda crap.

[Dave72dt]

I doubt if either of the ballast resistor are bad.  Ballast resistors will have an ohm reading spec and they vary according to part number.  Single post on each end resistors can be installed in either direction.  There is one used on Chrysler products that has a dual resistor and that one does matter.  That resistor has two different ohm readings.  I've never seen one of those resistors drop 6volts.  Now's your opportunity to properly troubleshoot your ignition system.  Expect a voltage drop coming out of the coil.  Use the same ground point for all your tests.  Test each connection point and each connector both into and out.

[kencombs]

Are you measuring the 12v at the coil with the points open or closed?   Big difference as the resistor only does its thing when current is flowing.

[lostviking]

I'm at work, so I don't have my manual handy. Does the stock wiring have a ballast resistor?

[Los_Control]

@kencombs you are 100% correct and in my research this morning I learned that.

I have 12.7 at the coil with the points open, 6.5 with the points closed ..... The coil and condenser work as a team when the electricity is flowing (points closed)

So mine is doing what it should .... currently I'm working on the distributor

 

 

I installed a NOS condenser and while the wires looked fine, thought I would put some heat shrink on them for extra protection.

Will remove the condenser from the coil and try it again.

 

Right now I just feel like I made too many changes at one time for me to figure this out.

I did switch from 6V + ground to 12V - ground, installed ballast resistor and new coil and the custom condenser all at the same time.

 

I'm just going to back the truck up and remove the custom condenser and get it working good with the 12V conversion ..... then later can play with the condenser.

I will know pretty soon if it runs returned back to stock.

[lostviking]

6.5V seems a bit low to me. I'm used to seeing 8-9V.