New guy with a 1938 Chrysler Imperial

[Daniel Jones]

Hi All,

My name is Dan Jones and I live near St. Louis, MO USA.  I've got a 1938 Chrysler Imperial with a 299 cubic inch straight 8 and T-86 transmission with R-6 overdrive.  In educating myself about the car, I find myself referencing this forum frequently so I thought it was time to join and introduce myself.  I've owned this particular car for only a year but, in the late 1970s, my dad took early retirement from a Ford transmission plant in Ohio and restored a 1937 Chrysler Imperial of which I have fond memories.  It was purchased locally near where I grew up in Amelia, Ohio.  Surprisingly, for a rust belt car, the car was completely rust free and every nut, bolt and screw I removed during disassembly came out without breaking or even stripping threads.  Even more surprising was the fact that he let my high school self borrow the freshly restored car for dates where it never failed to impress (especially compared to my $250 1971 AMC Gremlin). 

 

The Imperial appeared stock but dad made several modifications to make it a better, safer, car to drive.  The wheels were replaced and radial tires fitted, along with a set of hubcaps from my mom's 1976 Chrysler Cordoba.  Brake shoes were re-lined with a different material to provide a higher coefficient of friction when cold.  The block was ported and the engine rebuilt plus a vacuum advance distributor was fitted 12 volt Crane/Allison XR-700 conversion kit triggered by a big yellow Accel coil.  Dad also went to a local auto parts store (Hamlet Auto Parts, the kind of place with a 6 foot wide rack of parts catalogs on the counter) and matched the tube shocks with some more stiffly damped ones from a later model GM full size car.  Also, halogen headlights from the J.C. Whitney catalog were fitted.  With the R6 overdrive, it was a great driver and would cruise the highways at 65+ MPH all day long.  Dad used the car often and thought nothing of tossing the oxy-acetylene tanks in the back to take them to be re-filled.  He and mom drove the car on several long trips to Arizona, Texas and Maine among other destinations. 

 

Sometime after the restoration was completed, dad noticed an ad in Hemmings from someone selling a couple of Chrysler straight eight flatheads so we drove to Tennessee with a trailer and brought back a 1937 C-19 (274 cubic inch version, same as in his car) and a 1950 C-49 (hydraulic lifter 324 cubic version).  Also included in the deal were a couple of the M-6 Prestomatic Fluid Drive transmissions and other parts (extra crankshaft, main caps, rods and cylinder heads).  Dad's long term plan was to rebuild the 324 version and swap it into the car.  Along the way, he also purchased another car to restore, a 1936 Nash Ambassador with OHV 6 and T212 3 speed with R1 overdrive.  He passed away before he got a chance to restore the Nash or rebuild the 324 for the Chrysler.  I inherited the Nash project and my brother got the Imperial.  By this time the Imperial was in need of another restoration.  My brother lived near Indianapolis but didn't have the garage space to do the work so it ended up at my place where we started disassembling the car for restoration.  Unfortunately, my brother passed away unexpectedly at the beginning of the pandemic and I ended up with the car.  Recently, I purchased a 1938 Imperial of my own.  It's an older (circa 2006) restoration but has seen only a few thousand miles over the intervening years.  I could have kept the 1937 as a parts car but a friend of the family (and brother of the guy who painted the Imperial in the late 1970s) asked me if he could have it.  I agreed it would be better restored and back on the road than serving as a parts car so I gifted it to Bill, though he's yet to come pick it up which is dangerous as I'm tempted to rob parts off of it from time-to-time. 

 

Eventually, I plan to rebuild the 324 and swap it into my 1938 and I'll probably also end up building one for Bill as well.  At this point, I'm just cleaning and inventorying parts when I'm not working on one of my other vehicles, educating myself as I go on the year-to-year differences (and Chrysler flatheads in general).  I've got several other projects in queue and the 299 in my 1938 runs great so there's no pressing need to finish the rebuild but plans are to do the machine work and order parts so it will all be there ready and waiting when the time comes.  My dad disassembled the engine and did a valve job using his Sioux valve grinding equipment but that's as far as he got.  I recall him mentioning the hardened exhaust seats were tough on the seat grinding stones.  I recently pulled the block out of the basement to clean it but I noticed I was missing some of the parts. I searched for them but had no luck.  A short time later, I noticed a pair of Chrysler straight 8s for sale near a friend's place in Ohio and he volunteered to retrieve and deliver them to me in Missouri.  Also included was another Fluid drive transmission which I believe to be an M-5 Simplimatic.  All that cast iron really had my friend's Dakota pickup truck squatting in the rear.  A couple of weeks after he dropped the engines off, I was cleaning the cobwebs from a long neglected corner of my pole barn when I stumbled upon the missing parts.  Doh!

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Daniel Jones
formatting

[p15-1948]

Welcome to the forum!

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Daniel Jones said:

I was cleaning the cobwebs from a long neglected corner of my pole barn when I stumbled upon the missing parts.  Doh!

 

Lol, we've all been there.  Nice car and welcome aboard.

[keithb7]

Welcome. I’ve found this site to be the best anywhere, for flathead era Mopars. 

[andyd]

Daniel..........Welcome aboard from sunny South Grafton, New South Wales, East Coast Australia.......great story, I'me impressed with your Imperial family.........have a question tho'......I'm curious about those 3  intake manifolds in your picture.....what are they from?........I'm searching for a 1957-1962 318 Polysphere Plymouth cast iron 4 barrel intake manifold...........the 4 barrel intakes were never used here in Oz and are not common anywhere.........what are those intakes you have from?..........regards from Oz...Andy Douglas   

Edited December 26, 2023 by andyd
more info.

[sidevalvepete]

Yes, welcome...glad you have let us into your story. The period your vehicles come from is right up my alley. Haven't had experience with the straight eights but really looking forward to learning more. Folks will be keen on pictures  - me included!!

[1950 Special Deluxe]

Great story, thanks for sharing. Welcome aboard.

[keithb7]

I think I may speak for many by saying, we’d love to see some photos.  I’m a bit of ‘38 man myself. I’m quite interested in your ‘38 Imperial. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Sounds like you know pretty much how to move ahead with your straight eight projects.

Not many have or know much about the upper line Chryslers.

I just scrapped out several 1946-50 eights less the manifolds....getting older...time to thin.

Have had those engines for 40+ years.

Good quality parts are tough to find for the eight cylinder cars these days.

Great story about your dad and cars/parts.

[Daniel Jones]

Thanks guys.  I'll share what I learn on the flathead 8s as I go.  Keith, I've watched several of your videos, taking notes on how closely the designs are between the 6 and 8 engines.

 

> I'm curious about those 3 intake manifolds in your picture.....what are they from?

 

The ones on the left hand side with the spread bore carburetor pattern (Rochester Quadrajet, Carter ThermoQuad) are Offenhauser Dual Ports.  One is for a Ford 351C-2V (would also fit the Australian 302C) while the wider one at the back is for a Ford 351M/400 (taller deck version of the 351C).  The one in the middle is an Edelbrock Performer dual plane for the 351C-4V.  The Dual Port isn't a high RPM intake, rather it's more of a fuel economy and throttle response intake, comparable to an low rise dual plane in application but fundamentally different in design.  Dual plane intakes have the plenum separated left to right.  One side of the plenum is on a higher level (or "plane") than the other side.  On a V8, each side of the dual plane plenum feeds two cylinders on both sides of the engine.  The dual port design has the runners split into top and bottom sections (see attached picture), with the plenum split fore-and-aft (rather than side-to-side like the dual plane).  It's essentially two single plane intakes, stacked on top of each other.  The primaries feed the longer path lower runners and the secondaries feed the shorter path upper runners.  When cruising, the manifold operates on the smaller area, longer path, runners.  This provides high velocity flow for good fuel economy and throttle response.  Under high demand, the secondaries open and provide additional flow through the larger top runner portion.  It's an interesting approach but the packaging required to fit within a low rise carb intake envelope does compromise the design somewhat.  By reputation, it's a good fuel economy, low end response intake.  Many years ago, David Vizard did a big intake comparison on a 350 Chevy but the trends probably apply.  The Dual Port was near the bottom of the list when comparing peak horsepower but the area under the curve was wide and it was the only intake that had better brake specific fuel consumption than the factory 4 barrel intake.  The ratio of the cross-sectional areas of the the upper and lower ports varies by engine.  Some are split evenly.  On the the 351C, the split in area is perhaps one third to two thirds.  That would lend itself well to spread bore carb designs with similar venturi area ratios.  According to Offenhauser, the Dual Port is designed for an idle to 5500 RPM range but an Offenhauser tech rep claimed 300 to 400 RPM can be picked up by milling back the port divider 3/4" (keeping it square) at the head flange.  He also mentioned that if you open up the the primary and secondary holes up to a big oval instead of two circles, performance will increase with no loss of low end.  I've got one for a 351C-4V that has been cut apart, ported and re-welded that I intend to dyno test when the opportunity arises.

 

The polished intake at the back is a Huffaker single plane for the Buick/Rover aluminum V8s.

[Daniel Jones]

Dodgeb4ya, do you still have any of the straight 8 parts? I'm missing a few parts like side covers and a harmonic balancer.

[Daniel Jones]

> I think I may speak for many by saying, we’d love to see some photos.

 

I'll start with a few more of the kitchen table photos and post a few of the Imperial later.  

 

[SteveR]

43 minutes ago, Daniel Jones said:

 

I'll start with a few more of the kitchen table photos and post a few of the Imperial later.  

Yep, what are kitchen tables for anyways.

[andyd]

Daniel.......many thanks for the intake manifold info...I was pretty sure that they wern't Poly intakes but I wasn't sure......lol........I assume they are for the Pantera's........andyd.

[Daniel Jones]

7 hours ago, SteveR said:

Yep, what are kitchen tables for anyways.

 

 Indeed.  The cast iron Chrysler parts were a real stress test of table the design limits.  It barely noticed the aluminum Buick/Rover bits.  Fully assembled, the 294 cubic inch Rover/Buick pictured below should come in just under 300 lbs.  A search suggests a Chrysler straight 8 comes in at a bit under 700 lbs.  I'm in the market for a dual carb aluminum intake manifold and an aluminum cylinder head if anyone knows of any for sale.  That reminds me, I should probably weigh the straight 8 parts as I go.

[Daniel Jones]

A couple of the parts engines.  The red one is a 1949 C46.  By the looks of the accessories, it may have been an industrial engine.  The blue one is C39 so 1946 to 1948. 

[Daniel Jones]

5 hours ago, andyd said:

I assume they are for the Pantera's........andyd.

Several years back, I ran a dyno test program for the Pantera club.  I supplied a rebuilt long block and people all over the United States (and England and Australia) lent me parts to test.  I must have tested 20+ intake manifolds, along with 8 different sets of cylinder heads.  The day I was going to test the dual port intakes, the accelerator pump failed in the Carter ThermoQuad I had hoped to use so I never got a chance to baseline them against a dual plane and see if the porting increased performance or not.  The Performer dual plane did come off of a Pantera engine.  A local collector recently purchased the car and the engine tightened up as they unloaded it off the trailer.  His mechanic shut it down immediately and ended up giving me the engine.  I've got it on the stand in the garage at the moment.  It was a nice build (4 bolt main block, closed chamber 4V heads, adjustable valve train, roller rockers, hydraulic roller cam, RPM International forged stroker crank and rods, forged pistons and 4 bolt main block but the guides were set up too tightly and the wrong valve stem seals used.  6 of 8 exhaust valves seized in the guides.  Several of the valves tagged pistons and one cylinder is lightly scored but I think I can save it.  If so, the friend who delivered the straight 8s wants it.  He's got a guy who laser welds and thinks it can be repaired that way.  We'll see.  If not, we can always sleeve that hole. 

[Daniel Jones]

A few exterior shots.  The whitewalls and fender skirts really complete the look but the tires are 17 years old at this point so I plan to replace them with radials (perhaps a bit wider, maybe 225 mm) but I'd like to find wheels of a very similar design. 

[Daniel Jones]

A few exterior details and a couple of engine bay.  The radiator has a slow leak.  I wanted to use the one out of the 1937 while I have the 1938 one rebuilt but they have different top tank designs.

[Daniel Jones]

Interior shots.

[andyd]

Many years ago in the mid 1970's a mate obtained a 1938 Imperial C-20 Limosene, one of 122 built ex Detroit, factory RHD(probably the only RHD one built) ex State Governor of Queenslands limo, complete with the glass partition, intercom & jump seats ..........a beautiful, huge car.........its been restored and is well known here in Oz owned by Les Sonter in Sydney.

There was also a 38 Imperial 4dr sedan restored here in my local area in the 1980's it used a local T.J.Richards body shell.......now sold, whereabouts unkown....that one of yours is exceptional.........regards from Oz.......andyd     

[sidevalvepete]

I agree with you Andy, exceptional. What a beauty. I can really picture it in my mind as I have the '38 D9. I think all I would share would be some of the dash knobs. Many similarities in design though. Mine would look like the middle class rural nephew next to this Park Lane dame.

[61spit]

What a beautiful automobile. Stunning.

[keithb7]

What a great car. Thanks for sharing the photos. The hood appears considerably longer than my 6 cyl ‘38 Plymouth. I really notice the extra length in the front fenders. 
 

Beautiful dash and gauges. My ‘38 Chrysler has the optional overdrive. Does your Imperial have OD? I think I see an OD activation knob in a photo. I have the same clock and AM radio package.  

Edited December 27, 2023 by keithb7

[Sniper]

Truly beautiful, if I was going to spend stupid money on a car that would be in the running,