Rocker Panel Replacement

[clarkede]

I would first like to share my appreciation for this Forum and all those that participate and share their knowledge and experiences. 

First - a little background...

I’ve been restoring my Plymouth that was passed down to me from through my father from my grandfather.  Back in 1984/5 when I was a Junior/Senior in High School I started working on the car and my dad let me take it to college with me. So many fond memories...  After finishing school he just gave the car to me to keep in the family.  I drove it all the time and it was one of my main means of transportation for many years.  Then I started having  some trouble with the fuel tank lining disintegrating and causing debris to travel through the fuel lines and into the carburetor and eventually clog the jets. I was able to do emergency road-side carburetor repair to get it going again, but it started happening all the time and I began to lose faith in it as a reliable vehicle (I'm sure many readers of this will know exactly what I'm talking about). Then I let it sit for nearly 20 years as my life focused on raising a family.  Then one day I made the decision that it was time to get it running again.  After a few months of prep work, I managed to get it started as proof that it was worth it.  The feeling was so good to hear it run again.  The past two years I spent replacing the tires, entire fuel system (tank & fuel lines), exhaust system, brake system (wheel cylinders, master cylinder, brake lines, front disc brake conversion (scarebird)), and electrical system (all new wiring, improved grounding, conversion to 6V alternator, and added fuse panel).  The next main items on my list are to do a little body work and then repaint it. 

That is what leads me to the topic of this thread – Rocker Panel Replacement. In order to repaint the car I have several things that will need to be done first – including some rust that needs to be dealt with.  I am not looking to take this car to the highest degree of perfection, but I would like it to be something that is not an embarrassment to my two young daughters.  Unfortunately, my children have been raised with my wife constantly calling it a stinky rust bucket.  They have no interest in getting in it, because in their eyes they’ve been brainwashed that it's past it’s time.  I’m not doing this restoration for them – it is something that I want to do for myself and I really enjoy doing it.  However, my daughters are now in high school and my hope is that if I make it look cool, they might give it a chance and have a little interest in it.  I've done some work since these pictures were taken, but here is what it looked like after I got it running again. 

Now for the project…  Overall the body is in pretty good condition.  I have a little rust on a couple doors and behind the rear door frame. But the big issue is the rocker panels.  I started looking into what they even are and how they work and realized that I was pretty ignorant about them and just took them for granted.  But while I was redoing the brakes, exhaust, wiring, etc., I knew I was going to have to tackle the rust.  I finally pulled the rocker stainless steel molding off and this is what the rockers look like:

This is under front-passenger door (with door closed)

This is under front-passenger door (with door open so you can see the sill).  I have removed the rubberized sill tread (that is seen in this picture) and the Sill floorboard appears to be in pretty good condition.  I’m hoping to not replace the floorboard or the sill, but I will discuss this more as I unfold the story…

 

This is under the rear passenger side door.

Below is an image with the rear passenger side door open.  Sorry for the tape measure, but I was trying to get some measurements of the rear door opening and the overall length of the rocker panel for a 4 door sedan.  As you can see the rear door area is about 24 inches.  The total length of both doors is around 57-58 inches.

After a lot of researching I ordered new rocker panels (below).  The right and left rockers are not interchangeable as the lip that goes under the door increases in height as you get closer to the front of the front door.  You can see that the two rockers in this picture are different (the picture just shows one end of each rocker).  You can see that the lip on the top image is narrow and the one on the bottom is much larger.

I was curious if the rockers would fit over the existing rusted out rockers and they sort of do.  The pillar between the front and rear door (and the overall length of the new rockers being a few inches too long) prevented me from fitting it entirely from front to back. I was able to slide the new rocker over the front rusted portion as you can see in this picture below (with the door open):

Here you can see the door (mostly) closed and the raw and untrimmed fitment looks pretty decent:

Ok… at this point I need to mention a few important issues. 

1.       I have never welded.  I have done electronics soldering, pipe soldering and brazing, but never arc welding.  I researched many Youtube videos (Bad Chad is very good and motivational for beginners). I  think I can do this.  I went out this past weekend and bought a Mig Welder, helmet, gloves, etc. to do the job, along with a few scrap pieces of metal to practice on.  More about welding in a bit.

2.       The brackets that connect to the frame with rubber mounts are rusted out pretty bad (see images below).  I feel that before replacing the outer rockers, that I should do some structural rebuild of some sort.  Please chime in with your opinions on this as I really don’t know where to start with the structural braces/bars/beams/etc.  Keep in mind, that I could just make it look pretty for painting by replacing the rockers – since that is technically all you see from the outside.  However, if I attempt to go back and fix the structural issues later, I might have wished that I had done that first.

The floorboard is fairly stable as I had replaced sections of it back in the mid 80’s. You can see in the image above that the frame-braces look to be in pretty good condition.  The rubber mounts are in bad shape.  The metal beams that go from side-to-side and support the floor sheet metal are rusted out that connect to the frame-braces and the rockers.   

----------------

If anyone has "any" advice on doing rocker replacement, please let me know.  Also, any advice on the frame mounts and how to properly support the rockers. 

I’m hoping to share this project to the end (with all its challenges) – including the rocker replacement, prep, sanding and painting.

[Eneto-55]

There are some pretty serious rust issues under your car.  I'm not sure how much can be done w/o removing the body from the frame, but I understand that you won't want to go that far.  Inner rocker panels, the body to frame supports, etc.  But it appears that your frame is solid, so that's a big help.

 

Check out this thread by a young (HS) guy who was on here for awhile a few years back.  He had a similar issue with the underbody.  His dad threw a lot of dough into the project, and they went all out on it, but you can see what he was dealing with, and how he approached some of the issues you mentioned already.  (His frame was in really bad shape as well, and personally I wouldn't have wanted to reuse it.  It will typically rust from the inside out, and if it's rusted clear through as his was, it is to wonder where all it is already very thin, but not showing through - yet.)

 

https://p15-d24.com/topic/47891-my-first-car-p15-1947-plymouth-deluxe/#comments

Edited October 7, 2023 by Eneto-55

[D35 Torpedo]

That looks about par for the course. My welding tip is to go watch Make it Kustom. Carl gives good pointers, and his quality is well above Chad. 

[Los_Control]

Best advice I can give for welding, as I'm a noob myself. I bought my welder about 5 years ago and have been practicing with it on everything but my truck.

Maybe I'm a slow learner .... maybe I bought more machine then I needed which makes it more complicated to learn how it works.

Life gets in the way sometimes ... I took almost a year off from working on my truck.

Either way I just kept working at it until I built my confidence up to know I can weld in patch panels on my truck & come out satisfactory.

 

You will learn what you can and can not get away with, welding on rusty metal. You will have to be able to clean your metal with a grinder & get shiny good metal to weld to.

Basically, you are going to make a lot of mistakes while you are learning. I knew this and did not want to use my truck to learn on.

 

For youtube, I like to watch fitzee.  He shows how he can take large complex jobs and break them down into several smaller jobs to complete the over all process.

He also uses basic tools and shows my tricks on making your own tools and jigs to get things done. ... Well worth watching.

I also agree Carl on make it custom is worth watching, he is very talented .... Carl has a lot of specialty tools I do not think I will ever have.

Why watch him teach how to use a power hammer, when I'm never going to own one.

 

Just watch what you like .... the learning comes from doing.

 

[bartenderfloyd]

I was going to say the same thing Eneto and Los Control said.  The thread Eneto linked was the one I used to get an idea on how the rockers were supposed to look and connect.  I have a 1950 though so I had to improvise a bit.  I also used Fitzee to learn how to weld sheetmetal and get rid of rust. https://www.youtube.com/@fitzeesfabrications.  The smallest steel I was used to welding was 1/4 inch thick.  Fitzee showed me how to weld 18 gauge.  I had to practice for a few days but it wasn't that bad as I didn't want the car perfect, just to look good.  I had the same issue as you with the rusted body mounts.  My frame was in great shape but the rockers disintegrated.  Check out my thread.  I welded a 2inch by 3 inch square stock pipe from the front to the back on each side of the car.  Attached it with steel plates.  I used that as the base to weld the floors and rockers. 

 

[DJ194950]

You have a lot of rusty metal that needs to be replaced. 

Pans to keep it in the family and be used pretty much dictate the repairs, plus you live on the east coast with Snow!

 

Watch the videos suggested and many more if you really are willing  to do the work.

 

I was going to say - and able- but most of us were not totally (or even slightly)  able at the start of our projects!  Some money for needed parts and perseverance is what IS required.  Maybe also an understanding/ supportive ? wife if applicable.

 

Others will surely disagree but I personally recommend getting a mig welder that uses gas and solid wire  not flux coated wire without the gas . No  need for anything bigger than a 140 A with a small rental bottle for the co2/argon mix ( cheaper than the 100% argon) .

Much easier to learn to weld and will always give a much nicer finished product!  Again, My opinion!

 

I totally agree with the need to weld clean / shiny metal parts for  lasting - good looking work. Again many many U-tube videos are available on the how to's.

 

Car totally appears worth the trouble to do the needed repairs, I have seen others on this forum do MUCH more extensive rust panel replacement  as beginners.

 

I have done my share of floor/ rockers/ body mount supports on two Plymouths myself, but I was not a total rookie to mig welding nor expert either.

 

Good luck!

 

DJ

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by DJ194950

[MikeMalibu]

I concur with the suggestions above and the video recommendations. Carter Auto Restyling on YouTube just did an inner/outer rocker replacement video. Same for Fitzee. Might be helpful. Suggest you first rebuild the sheet metal from the frame outwards before welding the outer rocker panels in place. Looks like you need inner rocker panels as well. Suggest replacing the body mounts before welding the outer rocker panels because that affects door gaps. You can do this.

[Ivan_B]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:21 AM, clarkede said:

I am not looking to take this car to the highest degree of perfection, but I would like it to be something that is not an embarrassment to my two young daughters. . . . However, my daughters are now in high school and my hope is that if I make it look cool, they might give it a chance and have a little interest in it.

 

I'd say - forget about that. Old cars are not a women's thing, with very few exceptions or purposeful diversion. The future in-laws/grand kids might appreciate the car in the family, though. ?

 

As for the body work, as previously stated, it looks like you have considerably more work to do than just the outer rockers. Since this is your family car, etc., I assume that you want to fix it the correct way? That will probably require some skill and lot's of time. Luckily, frame-on bodies are not so bad when they rust at the bottom. At least you do not have to deal with structural issues.

I would start by completely removing the interior (both seats, carpet, door panels) and carefully inspecting all the bottom end. Chances are, you have some holes in the floor panels, door edges, and wheel arches too. All these have to be fixed, otherwise, the rust will come back in a little while. Also, remember that there will be some enclosed areas, which you cannot see into. These needs to be evaluated as well. Also, do inspect the frame, inner fenders, firewall, and other places from the outside.

Since you are not a welder, have you considered taking it to a vintage body shop, at least for the metal work? This will be expensive, but if you find a good place (with people who actually know what they are doing) it could actually save you a lot of time and frustration.

[D35 Torpedo]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:18 AM, MikeMalibu said:

I concur with the suggestions above and the video recommendations. Carter Auto Restyling on YouTube just did an inner/outer rocker replacement video. Same for Fitzee. Might be helpful. Suggest you first rebuild the sheet metal from the frame outwards before welding the outer rocker panels in place. Looks like you need inner rocker panels as well. Suggest replacing the body mounts before welding the outer rocker panels because that affects door gaps. You can do this.

Kyle is mind blowingly talented. He really puts everyone else to shame.

[Bingster]

Are pre-fabricated rocker panels accurate or should we make them by scratch? My '47 DeSoto will need a couple. I've checked into local colleges offering welding and I am really intrigued to learn how.  I'm a professional furniture maker and it seems like some of the skills needed for that might carry over with a change from wood to metal.

[Dave72dt]

Welding skills will come in handy regardless of pre fabbed or scratch built panels.  You have to attach them somehow and rivets and screws are not recommended for structural components.  Purchasing equipment to make really nice panels for one build project doesn't make a lot of sense.   Pre fabbed panels are usually reasonably close and most require some "adjustment" in how they fit, how crisp the lines are, etc.  Hammers, dollies, cutting tools, clamps are needed for either panels and you're sure to find some other spots that may need a patch that can be made with hand tools.  Metal brakes, shears, planishing hammers, etc can be expensive and take up a lot of room

[MikeMalibu]

13 hours ago, Bingster said:

Are pre-fabricated rocker panels accurate or should we make them by scratch? My '47 DeSoto will need a couple. I've checked into local colleges offering welding and I am really intrigued to learn how.  I'm a professional furniture maker and it seems like some of the skills needed for that might carry over with a change from wood to metal.

Yes, your skills will cross over. Multi-process welders are much more affordable now and plenty of instructional videos on YouTube. 

[Bingster]

Thanks Malibu!

[bacelaw]

Buying a cheapo flux core welder was one of the best purchases I've made.  It will weld nuts to broken bolts and make short work of them.  I've even welded sheet metal patches with it, one tack at a time.  Just yesterday I welded a brake booster pushrod back together - highly recommend.  Sure, you could get a pro welder with a gas bottle...but the little flux core welders do almost anything your average DIY guy could need.  They are compact, lightweight, no gas required...it's fun to learn.  

[Bingster]

How much is cheapo?

[bacelaw]

2 minutes ago, Bingster said:

How much is cheapo?

I bought harbor freight's $150 titanium flux core welder.  I find a reason to use it all the time.   I bought some quality wire and it performed much better.  Railings around our house, welding nuts on broken bolts, etc...I replaced a door skin with it, and it worked well even on thin sheet metal.  It's portable,  easy.

[Bob Ritter]

There is a couple of ways I would repair the rust damage. I assume the other side is in the same condition. You can always find another body and switch them or find a body and cut out sections you need out. The 4-dr bodies are pretty cheap in California, in fact I have 4-dr. parts car that would be perfect for what you need. But the cost of shipping would be to much, so I would suggest finding one in your area, that is if you decide to go that way. Any way best of luck.

[Ivan_B]

11 hours ago, Bob Ritter said:

You can always find another body and switch them. . . .

I am not sure what kind of things there are in California, but that is extreme ? I did look for southern CA cars, in the past, and from what I recall, there are not many cars, plenty of rust, and the prices are rather steep.

 

Besides, this car has been in the family for generations, switching a body is not really a good solution, in this case. If he wanted another car, he could just get a whole car in better condition, in California ?

Edited October 22, 2023 by Ivan_B

[Bingster]

I'd very much like to see your progress.  Keep us posted.

[1947 D24 limo]

Just wondering what kind of hardware to attach the rocker panel brackets.  I recieved the car with various bags of hardware.  I am willing to buy new stuff as well.  Thanks for the help. 

[Bingster]

 

[52b3b Joe]

When I did the rockers on my Dad's 48 Desoto, we bought the panels from the Plymouth Doctor. The panels were not perfect, I had to modify and fit them a lot, but they worked. I used an inexpensive flux core wire welder. It took some time to get decent with it. Prior to starting the project we were in the same situation with it being a 4 door and if it was really worth the money/effort. We felt the car was worth it, so we ordered the panels and starting cutting it up once they arrived. If you look in the link to the thread, you can see what I did. It was a lot of work, but I enjoyed it. As far as the rocker supports, I used scrap metal and made new ones or repaired the existing ones. It doesn't look completed factory, but I really didn't care. It's strong and it functions just fine. I made all of the other patches in the car from an old metal desk we cut up years before. I'm still using that desk for metal to this day lol. The car came out very nice, and for whatever reason it always gets a lot of attention at car shows. I was shocked this year it won best Mopar at a show lol.