Car wont turn over?

[johnjnr]

HI all,

 

Yet another cry out to the knowledgeable ones on here. That's all of you except me!

Now i have recently had the starter motor rebuild on my 1940 Dodge RHD Coupe with the hope that that would solve my initial turning over issues. I dont want to start the car yet but to get it to turn over would be a great achievement. So i turned the keys, yes keys as someone fitted a hidden security one for good measure and i still have nothing.

 

Im no auto electrican but thought testing  some of the connections might be a good place to start and im also in the UK so this MOPAR is a bit alien over here!

The photos attached show the reading followed by what was tested.

so photo 1 + 2 reading  + starter button connection, 3 + 4 reading + starter button connection, 5 + 6 reading + voltage regulator top connection, 7 + 8 Starter button connections reading + starter motor power connection, 9 + 10 Starter solenoid left connection, 11 + 12 Starter solenoid right connection,

 

Last pic just to show the car itself which is now needing to get running so i can enjoy it. 

[wagoneer]

Have you tried to ground the left top starter solenoid (not the wire from starter). At least on my 48 it's grounded directly. 

[Ivan_B]

First of all, be careful with those wires, it looks like the old insulation is brittle and is falling apart. You will short something...

Second, most of the cars work the same way. Was the car turning before you (someone) worked on the starter? Was the starter bench-tested when off the car? ?

There is no need to take pictured of your multi-meter If I am seeing the solenoid (little black box) correctly, when you press the button, it should provide 6 volts to one of the solenoid contacts and than, in turn, closes the circuit between the battery cable and the starter (two large nuts below the solenoid). I am noticing that one of the nuts was painted, wonder if that's still connected to where it is supposed to be? Do you hear a click when you push the button?

We need to confirm that the button wire is connected to the right solenoid terminal, and that the solenoid itself is operating.

 

 

 

 

[Bryan G]

On 9/5/2023 at 5:41 PM, wagoneer said:

Have you tried to ground the left top starter solenoid (not the wire from starter). At least on my 48 it's grounded directly. 

This would be my first step. At least on some models this was grounded through the generator. Mine had a bad spot and when it happened to stop there, no crank. I currently have an alternator installed so I just grounded that post to the block. 

[greg g]

Your car should have a foot operated starter.  Has it been switched to the button operated solenoid from a later car?  Was the starter switced also?

 

c

 

 

[SteveR]

4 hours ago, greg g said:

Your car should have a foot operated starter.  Has it been switched to the button operated solenoid from a later car?  Was the starter switced also?

In looking at the wiring diagram for a 1940 Plymouth there is no sol or button for the starter. Perhaps this was added later or because it was an import was this changed?

You might want to check the resistance of the sol coil. If you have a relay and you press your button you should get 6vdc to the relay coil. then on the output contacts you should get 6vdc. This will go to your sol on the motor to engage the starter.

 

How close are you to Worcester england?

[Go Fleiter]

maybe You should test the starter directly: 

1. connect the clamp of a heavy jump cable to the starter's terminal.

2. Be sure to have the transmission in idle!

3. Touch the active battery pole ( "minus" IF POS. GROUNDED!) with the other clamp of the same  cable and see wether it spins or not.

4. if not: disconnect that clamp from the batt.

5. use the second cable/ clamp combo to give direct ground from batt passive GND pole to starter (Connect to a cleaned nut or bolt)

6. touch the active batt pole again.

Batt voltage may fall under 5,5 V

and when released rise again to 6,4 

So You know if starter is ok or not.

7. Starter SOL must  click when activated. if not: try direct  connection from active batt pole to SOL activating terminal (can't search for its correct name here with holiday equipment)

Beware: even if reading 6V at the SOL outlet to the starter when unloaded, its contacts (or old Cable connections to starter or batt) may not let pass 40-60 Amps when loaded. 

Next would be the switch and its cable connections...

Good luck!

Greetings from Portofino!

Go

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Go Fleiter

[greg g]

Time to learn the art of hot wiring your car. First we need pictures  of what is there.  Need to see the starter, and cables and wires attached.  Does the battery cable (should be a thick one, about 2x the thickness of a modern 12volt cable) attach directly to a thick terminal, or is it connected to a solenoid?

 

When you got the starter from the shop, did they bench test it, so you could hear and see it work?

Typical solenoid

Edited September 7, 2023 by greg g

[Ivan_B]

Some of the questions/tips are being asked/offered multiple times, already. The starter with solenoid is visible on the pics in the first message. His solenoid is a tiny bit more complicated with a safety wire, or what not

[johnjnr]

17 hours ago, greg g said:

Your car should have a foot operated starter.  Has it been switched to the button operated solenoid from a later car?  Was the starter switced also?

 

c

 

 

Hi Greg, As my car is a RHD it doesn't have a foot operated button. There is a foot operated headlight dimmer switch down there though

[johnjnr]

On 9/5/2023 at 10:41 PM, wagoneer said:

Have you tried to ground the left top starter solenoid (not the wire from starter). At least on my 48 it's grounded directly. 

Hi, no i havent tried that yet. What size wire would you use for that. Would that cause any issues with the solenoid etc.

[johnjnr]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:59 PM, Ivan_B said:

First of all, be careful with those wires, it looks like the old insulation is brittle and is falling apart. You will short something...

Second, most of the cars work the same way. Was the car turning before you (someone) worked on the starter? Was the starter bench-tested when off the car? ?

There is no need to take pictured of your multi-meter If I am seeing the solenoid (little black box) correctly, when you press the button, it should provide 6 volts to one of the solenoid contacts and than, in turn, closes the circuit between the battery cable and the starter (two large nuts below the solenoid). I am noticing that one of the nuts was painted, wonder if that's still connected to where it is supposed to be? Do you hear a click when you push the button?

We need to confirm that the button wire is connected to the right solenoid terminal, and that the solenoid itself is operating.

 

 

 

 

Ivan, Thanks re your comments on the wiring. That is something that i have noticed following the removal of some of that old insulation tape, so it looks like i might be replacing most of the cabling now too. 

The car didnt turn over when i got it. It was partially frozen so I freed this off with some Marvel Mystery Oil and patience! I then set about replacing the fuel lines, brake lines, master cylinder, brake cylinders etc etc. When I finally got around to connecting a battery for a dry run. Just wanted to check it turned over on its own steam. I got no response. So investigations began. Whatever we tried it didnt work, so we removed the starter and took it to a car electrical engineers. They tested it and found it "dead" refurbished it for us and we fitted it back in. 

The other large painted nut has a earth type strapping between the starter body and solenoid. No click whatsoever when trying the button. How would i test for the button wire to the correct terminal and solenoid operating? Im no electrical buff (at all) regards John

[johnjnr]

13 hours ago, SteveR said:

In looking at the wiring diagram for a 1940 Plymouth there is no sol or button for the starter. Perhaps this was added later or because it was an import was this changed?

You might want to check the resistance of the sol coil. If you have a relay and you press your button you should get 6vdc to the relay coil. then on the output contacts you should get 6vdc. This will go to your sol on the motor to engage the starter.

 

How close are you to Worcester england?

Steve, What you see is how i got it. I appreciate your advice but electrics are my achilles heel, i just dont get it. I live in Hertfordshire.

[johnjnr]

11 hours ago, Go Fleiter said:

maybe You should test the starter directly: 

1. connect the clamp of a heavy jump cable to the starter's terminal.

2. Be sure to have the transmission in idle!

3. Touch the active battery pole ( "minus" IF POS. GROUNDED!) with the other clamp of the same  cable and see wether it spins or not.

4. if not: disconnect that clamp from the batt.

5. use the second cable/ clamp combo to give direct ground from batt passive GND pole to starter (Connect to a cleaned nut or bolt)

6. touch the active batt pole again.

Batt voltage may fall under 5,5 V

and when released rise again to 6,4 

So You know if starter is ok or not.

7. Starter SOL must  click when activated. if not: try direct  connection from active batt pole to SOL activating terminal (can't search for its correct name here with holiday equipment)

Beware: even if reading 6V at the SOL outlet to the starter when unloaded, its contacts (or old Cable connections to starter or batt) may not let pass 40-60 Amps when loaded. 

Next would be the switch and its cable connections...

Good luck!

Greetings from Portofino!

Go

 

 

Thanks for this advice I will try and give this a go when back in the garage.

[johnjnr]

9 hours ago, greg g said:

Time to learn the art of hot wiring your car. First we need pictures  of what is there.  Need to see the starter, and cables and wires attached.  Does the battery cable (should be a thick one, about 2x the thickness of a modern 12volt cable) attach directly to a thick terminal, or is it connected to a solenoid?

 

When you got the starter from the shop, did they bench test it, so you could hear and see it work?

Typical solenoid

Greg,  The battery cable is connected directly to the Solenoid. When the starter was picked up my son collected it and no test was done to show it working  I may have to pull the starter again and get it back to then to test. Or learn how to do this myself!

[Ivan_B]

John, I would try to find-out what your starter setup came from (if it is not original to the car) and then look at the wiring diagram first. The solenoid on top of the starter should be similar to what Greg posted. This is just a large relay which connects the battery cable to the starter when you use it. So if you manually connect the two large contacts of the solenoid, the starter should spin (if it is working), I think. Just make sure that the other nut is not a ground. In which case, you definitely do not want to connect it with the first one Are there any part numbers on the solenoid/starter which might help identifying it? My car has manual starter pedal, so I cannot tell you specifically how this one is supposed to work.

If there is no click, then I suspect that the solenoid is not working or is not wired correctly.

 

Also, if you can pull the starter off the car, take the solenoid cover off (to see the insides) we can tell you exactly which wires to connect to test both the solenoid and the starter ?

Edited September 7, 2023 by Ivan_B

[SteveR]

It looks like in the photo of your relay on the starter (4th picture) where you are checking the 6vdc from the battery (large cable) the opposite terminal looks painted. If it is you will not get a ground and the starter will not operate. Also if the surface of the starter where it meets the engine is painted there will be on ground. It means pulling the starter and inspecting it. Also while the starter is out remove any rust where the starter meets the engine. 

In your 3rd photo with the relay on the firewall, those contacts look painted. If so they need to be cleaned and made bright (no paint just clean metal)

I would recheck all of your wiring connections and clean all of these connections. 

[westaus29]

My Aussie 38 Plymouth is rhd and has the same starter and solenoid as yours. Mine worked fine in an earlier life but is currently going back together after major restoration. I haven't wired mine up yet but tested fine by connecting earth to left terminal. Connect right to battery and you should hear a loud click as solenoid activates. This then connects the heavy battery lead to the starter and it should turn over. I just checked the Aussie workshop manual elec diagram and lo it doesn't show the solenoid at all! Mine is positive to earth by the way.

[Ivan_B]

Can you, maybe, take a picture of yours, illustrating what wires are connected where for testing? I don't think it is very clear based upon the description (sorry, which one is right in AU?). We don't want the TS to fry anything, at this point ?

Based on John's description, the solenoid gets 6 volts to both small contact on the solenoid (I think) and it doesn't do nothing. Which small contact is the button, and what the other one is for? Do you connect the two large nuts together when you want to bypass the solenoid, or is the other large nut for the ground strap? How would you hot-wire the starter to see if it works, on this one?

Edited September 9, 2023 by Ivan_B

[johnjnr]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:21 AM, westaus29 said:

My Aussie 38 Plymouth is rhd and has the same starter and solenoid as yours. Mine worked fine in an earlier life but is currently going back together after major restoration. I haven't wired mine up yet but tested fine by connecting earth to left terminal. Connect right to battery and you should hear a loud click as solenoid activates. This then connects the heavy battery lead to the starter and it should turn over. I just checked the Aussie workshop manual elec diagram and lo it doesn't show the solenoid at all! Mine is positive to earth by the way.

Hi it would be great if you could show me which connectors to use with some photos as your rhd will be easier to copy that an LHD versions which have different set up. Appreciate any  help before i pull the starter again.

 

Cheers

[johnjnr]

On 9/8/2023 at 9:16 AM, SteveR said:

It looks like in the photo of your relay on the starter (4th picture) where you are checking the 6vdc from the battery (large cable) the opposite terminal looks painted. If it is you will not get a ground and the starter will not operate. Also if the surface of the starter where it meets the engine is painted there will be on ground. It means pulling the starter and inspecting it. Also while the starter is out remove any rust where the starter meets the engine. 

In your 3rd photo with the relay on the firewall, those contacts look painted. If so they need to be cleaned and made bright (no paint just clean metal)

I would recheck all of your wiring connections and clean all of these connections. 

Thanks for your advice Steve, looks like i may have to pull the starter again and check all the connections etc.

 

[johnjnr]

On 9/7/2023 at 11:40 PM, Ivan_B said:

John, I would try to find-out what your starter setup came from (if it is not original to the car) and then look at the wiring diagram first. The solenoid on top of the starter should be similar to what Greg posted. This is just a large relay which connects the battery cable to the starter when you use it. So if you manually connect the two large contacts of the solenoid, the starter should spin (if it is working), I think. Just make sure that the other nut is not a ground. In which case, you definitely do not want to connect it with the first one Are there any part numbers on the solenoid/starter which might help identifying it? My car has manual starter pedal, so I cannot tell you specifically how this one is supposed to work.

If there is no click, then I suspect that the solenoid is not working or is not wired correctly.

 

Also, if you can pull the starter off the car, take the solenoid cover off (to see the insides) we can tell you exactly which wires to connect to test both the solenoid and the starter ?

Thanks again Ivan, lots of good advice coming my way appreciated.

[westaus29]

John, I didn't take a photo of the starter wiring before I removed it but I labelled the old wiring and kept it. I now have a new loom to install and thought I should double check things. I have a spare starter so took the solenoid front cover off to see how it works. The two top terminals are fully insulated and connect to a relay which switches power to the solenoid. I checked my old wiring, There is a long wire labelled starter which goes to switch on dash, and a short wire labelled earth. It doesn't matter which terminal goes to battery positive, the relay still works. I suggest the right terminal should go to battery, the left to earth. It doesn't matter whether the battery is set to positive or negative earth, it still works as intended. I also checked that the solenoid worked ok no matter whether positive or negative earth.

 

I would just say again that your setup is standard for RHD cars because driver on right could not reach a manual switch on floor like LHD cars have, so we got an upgrade to button on dash, one up on our American friends! 

 

To test, first disconnect heavy cable to starter from battery. Earth left top terminal then touch power to top right. You should hear a soft click from the relay. Now connect the battery cable and try again. You should get a loud thump from the solenoid which has two functions. It operates a heavy duty switch for power to the starter, and at same time pulls starter pinion into mesh with ring gear.

 

If it doesn't work as intended try touching battery cable direct to left hand lower terminal to see if starter runs, if yes you have a relay or solenoid problem. If not, a starter problem.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by westaus29
add testing

[Ivan_B]

So, the two small terminals on top are button (battery) and ground? I would expect that the solenoid would just be grounded to the engine, but well... In this case, we can now test the solenoid to see whether or not it clicks when the power is supplied.

 

How about the large terminals? The right one goes to battery; how about the left one? Looks like it's grounded and, unless the starter itself is insulated, that's probably not where the solenoid transfers battery power to. How about the farther away one, visible on the left? Is it part of the same terminal? Or is the whole left terminal insulated from the starter/body, and that's where the power is transferred, so by jumping two large terminals we can test the starter? ?

 

43 minutes ago, westaus29 said:

one up on our American friends!

? push buttons are not cool, the pedal is probably more reliable. Besides, I know of at least one story where some hooligans broke into an old car but could not take it for a joy ride because they did not know how to start it ?

[Sniper]

The two small terminals are connected to the coil inside a solenoid if you use a Multimeter and measure the resistance between them you should find continuity. The fact that you're reading voltage on both of them with your voltage testing tells me you probably have continuity. The two big ones provide power to the starter the coil energizes closes a pair of contacts and connect those two big terminals together. You can test that connection with an OHM meter as well