Major Leak---Countershaft 3-speed

[Sam Buchanan]

After removing the tranny (again...) to chase down a substantial leak I found it. The countershaft at the front of the transmission is leaking so badly that fluid drips from the bottom of the tranny. I'm tired of the mess not to mention topping up with $23/quart Redline MDL (great oil by the way, stops the crunchies).

 

Here is the leak:

 

 

 

I assume the shaft is supposed to be a drive fit in the case but in this instance there is enough clearance to pass trans fluid because the shaft is submerged in gear oil.. You can tell by the witness line on the case that the shaft is below the bellhousing gasket.

 

Previously I plugged this hole with fuel tank sealant but it only held for a couple of years. How do I make a long-term repair?

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Sam Buchanan

[Adam H P15 D30]

I think there was a gasket that went between the trans and bellhousing.

[kencombs]

A flat welch plug of the right size would be best.  Measure and search.  Maybe make one from a slightly oversize one by careful grinding.   Seat it with a little JB weld or similar after degreasing the recess.

[nonstop]

Just throwing this out there as another possibility - are you sure it is the countershaft?  Looking at the front of the trans, there looks to be a spot where the gasket did not make contact between the front bearing retainer and the countershaft.   If oil is leaking from the front retainer, it can be running down the face of the transmission and accumulating in the countershaft bore, making it look like it is leaking from the countershaft.  This is also below the oil return in the front bearing retainer.  You might want to check the retainer gasket at the very least.

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

I think there was a gasket that went between the trans and bellhousing.

 

There is, but the countershaft is below the bellhousing so no gasket over it.

 

1 hour ago, kencombs said:

A flat welch plug of the right size would be best.  Measure and search.  Maybe make one from a slightly oversize one by careful grinding.   Seat it with a little JB weld or similar after degreasing the recess.

 

Ken, that is what I'm considering. The 2nd-3rd gear rail has a plug, and it has the same bore as the countershaft, .750". I don't know if that particular plug is available but a plug should be easy to source in that common size. The shift rail has to slide in it's bore while the countershaft is a drive fit, I guess that is why the rail has a plug and the countershaft doesn't.

 

53 minutes ago, nonstop said:

Just throwing this out there as another possibility - are you sure it is the countershaft?  Looking at the front of the trans, there looks to be a spot where the gasket did not make contact between the front bearing retainer and the countershaft.   If oil is leaking from the front retainer, it can be running down the face of the transmission and accumulating in the countershaft bore, making it look like it is leaking from the countershaft.  This is also below the oil return in the front bearing retainer.  You might want to check the retainer gasket at the very least.

 

It is definitely the countershaft. I put the transmission on the bench, filled it properly and there is a steady flow of oil past the countershaft. The bearing retainer and its bolts are dry, the retainer was resealed two years ago. By the way, I used two small o-rings and a washer (visible in the photo) under each bolt instead of NOS seals that would probably be hard by now.

 

Thank you for the input, please offer additional solutions if you have them.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Sam Buchanan

[keithb7]

That end of the countershaft is an interference fit in the housing. Might even be slightly tapered. No seal.
 

Previously I when had popped open a tranny. I pulled it apart for rebearing and reseal. I pushed the countershaft out the rear. (It only comes out 1 way toward rear). Upon reassembly applied a thin coat sealant at both ends of the shaft. No leaks. 
 

Your CS end does seem a little excessively recessed. How’s the other end look? Retainer plate locked in place properly?

Edited September 17, 2022 by keithb7

[James_Douglas]

I have done several of these and I have not had any of them leak. I do however cover the recess with some silicon seal before I add any oil just as insurance.

 

You could take the entire trans to a general machine shop and have them place it in a mill and create a step in the case around the hole, like the engine blocks.  Then place a flat style welch plug in with permatex. That should seal it up tight. I suspect that the case or the shaft is out of spec.

 

The other option is to source a NOS shaft and tap it through and see if it seats better.

 

James

[Sam Buchanan]

2 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Your CS end does seem a little excessively recessed. How’s the other end look? Retainer plate locked in place properly?

 

 

Just for reference, here is a capture from the service manual showing what appears to be a similar recess to what I've observed. It appears from the details in the manual that the countershaft is captured by the extension housing, hard to see how it could back out.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, James_Douglas said:

I have done several of these and I have not had any of them leak. I do however cover the recess with some silicon seal before I add any oil just as insurance.

 

You could take the entire trans to a general machine shop and have them place it in a mill and create a step in the case around the hole, like the engine blocks.  Then place a flat style welch plug in with permatex. That should seal it up tight. I suspect that the case or the shaft is out of spec.

 

The other option is to source a NOS shaft and tap it through and see if it seats better.

 

James

 

 

No, I'm just going to plug the leak and call it good. I don't have any desire to disassemble or machine the transmission. I don't know if the trans has ever been rebuilt but I doubt it based on the low mileage of the car. But 74 years may have taken its toll on the close tolerances.   

 

Thank you for your comments and suggestions!

Edited September 17, 2022 by Sam Buchanan

[Sam Buchanan]

I hope the leak has been resolved, if so this will be the least expensive part I've installed on the P15. ?

 

Turns out a brand new Lincoln penny is a great fit in the countershaft recess. I buttered the recess with JB Weld, inserted the penny and sealed the outside. We'll know after the new release bearing arrives and the trans in installed if this solves the leak but I think it will. If the countershaft ever needs to be removed a hole can be drilled in the penny so a drift can be inserted to drive out the shaft.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr......been waiting on new release bearing so the transmission can be installed. Rock Auto listed National 1505 for my car and I was able to find the same item on Amazon with no shipping fee. It arrived today and not only is it the wrong bearing it is seized due to a manufacturing defect. This is a Federal Mogul product, thought I was buying good stuff.   Grrrrrrrrrrr............

 

Thinking I'll put the original bearing back in since it was working well, just had a slight murmur. It is a branded bearing, probably good quality.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Sam Buchanan

[Los_Control]

Just now, Sam Buchanan said:

Thinking I'll put the original bearing back in since it was working well, just had a slight murmur. It is a branded bearing, probably good quality

I did that once on the very first car I bought, fixed & drove.

1962 Rambler I bought from a lady on my paper route for $65 .... needed a new clutch.

I was 15 & while I managed to drop the rear end & pull back the enclosed drive line to pull the transmission .... I was just too stupid to figure out how to install the new throwout bearing. ..... So I put it all back together with new clutch/pressure plate & old throw out bearing ..... That bearing squealed like a stuck pig .... 

 

I think I'm a little smarter today. If the bearing was making any noise turning it by hand, even a murmur .... I would replace it or massage it with grease til it did not murmur a noise.

[Sam Buchanan]

28 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I think I'm a little smarter today. If the bearing was making any noise turning it by hand, even a murmur .... I would replace it or massage it with grease til it did not murmur a noise.

 

It's totally smooth and quiet when rotating by hand. Hoping I'm a little smarter today as well.......   ?

[Los_Control]

I say it may be fine, I would spend as much time greasing it as needed ... I would not toss it off like yesterdays newspaper.

If a bearing is good & functional it is ready to use.

Including rod or crank bearings .... no need to replace them unless needed.

Zero reasons to replace a throw out bearing unless it is needed. You will be the judge of that.

[Los_Control]

Often people will use the parts cannon & replace everything .... sometimes that is not the best approach.

 

[Sniper]

2 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

Thinking I'll put the original bearing back in since it was working well, just had a slight murmur. It is a branded bearing, probably good quality.

 

Get the numbers off the old bearing so you have them on hand to verify the correct replacement, if need be.

[Sam Buchanan]

15 minutes ago, Sniper said:

 

Get the numbers off the old bearing so you have them on hand to verify the correct replacement, if need be.

 

Good idea. In case this is useful to anyone, here is how this release bearing is marked:

 

Green     USA    CB-1054

[Sniper]

Ebay has one https://www.ebay.com/itm/185520260795

[Sam Buchanan]

7 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Ebay has one https://www.ebay.com/itm/185520260795

 

What's interesting is the box is marked 1505 which is what I ordered, but it wasn't close to being the correct fit. Maybe what I got was mispackaged?

[Sniper]

This link gives the dimensions of a 1505 bearing, might compare it to what you have.

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=218287&jsn=267

[Sam Buchanan]

I've already returned the bearing to Amazon but that looks like what I received and it is considerably larger (and the wrong shape) than the one that fits the sleeve on my transmission. Maybe it's the right one for fluid drive or something.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sam Buchanan

[Sam Buchanan]

Leak is fixed...so far. Still have a small drip out or off the flywheel belly pan, but the flywheel was clean when I removed it and the rear seal looked dry. The little rubber seals on the bearing cap may be passing some oil.

[Sniper]

Did you get a bearing that fit?

Edited September 23, 2022 by Sniper

[Sam Buchanan]

Put the original one back in, it's working fine.