Drums lock up when I torque anchor bolt nuts on 48 Desoto

[kencombs]

That 'spindle nut' adjustment procedure is in the wheel bearing service part of the manual. Ever manual I've ever seen has that process described.  Even Motors or Chilton, but it may be in a generic service section as it applies to all cars so they don't repeat it for every vehicle.   It is not a torque spec exactly, there is a specific procedure to seat the bearing and then a final adjustment.

 

And, NO, it should never lock the wheel in any case.    The only thing I can think of is the shoes are not centered with the drum.  Snugging that nut centers the drum with the spindle.  If the shoes are not concentric and centered on the same axis as the spindle,  that can cause them to drag.  The only conclusion I can come to is the process using the tool to do so has not worked for some reason.  What the reason is, I have no idea. 

[MarcDeSoto]

I just checked the inner bearing and saw that the race was raised up about 1/16" above the hub.  So I hammered in down.  Then I put the drum back on and it was really loose.  In fact it was too loose.  I put the outer bearing back on and cinched up the nut, but the drum was loosey goosey about a 1/4" play!  So I took the drum out again and used a punch to get the inner bearing even with the hub, but still too loose.  So I think you are on the right track.  There might be something wrong with my wheel bearing.  Maybe I should get new ones.  

[FarmerJon]

I don't know much yet about adjusting Lockheed brakes, but I do know that wheel bearing races should be seated in the hub, and, fully seated, you should have enough thread on the spindle to tighten the complete assembly well past "too tight" 

If they aren't fully seated, they will seat themselves sometime in the course of driving, and that is generally unpleasant.

 

 

I am fairly new here, but know you have been having lots of problems with getting these brakes together, but don't know the history of how they came apart, it sounds like they were last together many years ago.

Did they come to you as a basket case? Or did you disassemble them?

Are you sure all the parts are correct or is it possible a previous owner mixed in some alternatives that might not fit?

Are you including the 'washer plate' between the castle nut and outer bearing?

[kencombs]

8 hours ago, MarcDeSoto said:

I just checked the inner bearing and saw that the race was raised up about 1/16" above the hub.  So I hammered in down.  Then I put the drum back on and it was really loose.  In fact it was too loose.  I put the outer bearing back on and cinched up the nut, but the drum was loosey goosey about a 1/4" play!  So I took the drum out again and used a punch to get the inner bearing even with the hub, but still too loose.  So I think you are on the right track.  There might be something wrong with my wheel bearing.  Maybe I should get new ones.  

There is a machined-in stop for both the inner and  outer bearing inner race.  Those races should be firmly seated against that stop as a first step.  Then the inner seal goes against the inner race.  If your race was above the hub, where was the seal???   Something sounds really off here!

[MarcDeSoto]

In answer to your question, no, this is not a basket case.  It was driving just fine before I took it apart some 40 years ago.  It badly needed an engine rebuild at that time, but I made the newbie mistake to say "Hey let's take the whole car apart and do a ground up restoration!"  I have ordered some new cups and bearings and seals.  Thanks for the advice!  Do I remove the inner race with a hammer and drift?  Marc.

[MarcDeSoto]

I watched this video on how to replace front bearings, races, and seals on a 1951 GMC truck.  This is the closest to a 48 DeSoto that I found and it looks similar to my car.  

 

 

[MarcDeSoto]

I removed the drum and removed the inner seal and bearing. I tried to remove the race, but it wouldn't budge.  The parts looks OK to me.  Can I just leave the race in if it isn't obviously damaged?  Could the problem be with the outer bearing?  

 

 

[FarmerJon]

Ya got to be bold with the hammer to get the races out! 

There are usually 2 or 4 cut outs in the hub around the back of the race, I usually crisscross, hitting in one spot then the other to keep the race from 'cocking' and jamming. 

BUT 

I would clean the bearings good, and inspect for damage. 

https://www.timken.com/pdf/5892_Bearing Damage Analysis Brochure.pdf

Once clean, and if no flaws are found, I would test fit everything and figure out WTF is going on. Then pack with good grease and install with a new seal.

 

If damage is found, I would replace the race and bearing together.

 

I just sent a set of wheel bearings to New England Gear polishing for REM treatment, I will post a review when I get them back.

Edited March 14, 2022 by FarmerJon

[MarcDeSoto]

Yes, I know from the above video that you have to put the drift between the cut outs.  As he said, sometimes you have to resort to heat to get them out.  I already ordered new bearings and races and seals from Rock Auto.  I wonder if my problem is just the old one.  That my shoes are still just too thick, as sanding them has helped with the fit?  

[kencombs]

I’m more concerned with how and why the race was out of place to start with.   Or, did you mean the outer race or maybe the bearing cage?   I’m having. Hard time following. 

[harmony]

FarmerJon makes a very good point.  Cleaning the race and bearing might give you some clues.  I'm talking super clean so there is no sign of grease or anything else.  Look for shiny spots on the race as well as the bearing.  The one picture of the race looks like it might be ok, but spray it with brake clean, or whatever so it's squeaky clean, same with the bearing.  

For myself, when a issue or problem presents itself, I always what to know why, before I fix it.

[MarcDeSoto]

4 hours ago, kencombs said:

I’m more concerned with how and why the race was out of place to start with.   Or, did you mean the outer race or maybe the bearing cage?   I’m having. Hard time following. 

OK Ken, let me clarify that.  The race and the bearing were not out of place.  It was just the seal.  Hope that clarifies it.  I'm going to do what Harmony said to check the race and bearing.  If they are OK, I'm going to take some more material off of the shoe linings.  

[MarcDeSoto]

Today I fixed the problem finally, although I still don't know for certain what the problem really was.  I used my jitterbug to take some more material off of the shoe linings.  Then I replaced the rear wheel bearing and seal and the front wheel bearing.  The races looked fine, so I didn't replace them.  Now the drum goes on and turns even when I cinch up the spindle nut!  Thanks for all of you help here!!!

[harmony]

1 hour ago, MarcDeSoto said:

Today I fixed the problem finally, although I still don't know for certain what the problem really was.  I used my jitterbug to take some more material off of the shoe linings.  Then I replaced the rear wheel bearing and seal and the front wheel bearing.  The races looked fine, so I didn't replace them.  Now the drum goes on and turns even when I cinch up the spindle nut!  Thanks for all of you help here!!!

Great news Marc.  Well,,, good news at least.  Great news would have included figuring out why you've had so much grief getting that drum on.   Time for a beer! 

[Bryan G]

Lots of great information in this thread that will help others.

 

I dealt with many of the same struggles with my brakes; I would get them to spin free but as soon as I tested the brakes they'd be too tight...the cheapskate here then invested in a set of new return springs. And that was that! I've yet to pull the back drums again; those dragging brakes might be costing me some gas mileage

[desoto1939]

Marc:

 

So now all four drums are installed. The next thing is to bleed the brakes or have you already done that? do you have a soft pedal or do you get a pedal after pushing the brake pedal after approx 1/4-1/2 inch. After releasing the brake pedal do the four wheel spinf without any stopping or locking up.

 

Can you now at least drive the car out of the garage and stop and then go forward and stop without any drag of the brakes.

 

Seems strange that the seals and bearing were causing the issue unless they had been taken out sometime oer the last several years and wee not installed correctly.

 

Keep usposted onyour progress.

 

Rich Hartung

[MarcDeSoto]

Good questions Rich.  First of all, the car is not a car yet, just a rolling chassis.  I've already bled the brakes.  I have a hard pedal which gets tight at about 2 inches of pedal travel.  The four wheels spin but not really freely.  There is some shoe contact, which I was told was OK.  I am now tackling the next project of getting the engine started.  

[Crisjr14]

OK gentlemen I am in need of your help here I also am stuck with this issue about My brakes on my '53 dodge meadowbrook I do not have arrows to point to each other on the anchor bolts adjusters so if someone could help me I also see there is a high spot and and a low on the bolts where they sit in the hole any pictures links as to where they need to be positioned I Also need help with other parts positions please I have put pictures with arrows and circles of what I'm try to explain if it makes any sense at all to anyone I do have the homemade adjustment tool to dial them in close but can't get the drum back on so please I need answers links pictures anything from anyone in here it would greatly be appreciated I will be filling this post or if someone would like to email me direct at crisjr1469@gmail.com would be great to thank you all for your time and hope to have some help here with this mess I'm in 

[Sniper]

Only the two bottom adjusters nuts get torqued and you have to have the drum off and back it up with a wrench so you do not lose the adjustment.  Do not attempt to torqued the bolts that have the springs, you will lock your drums up doing that.

 

I just got done taking apart my rear brakes last month, cleaning and lubing all the adjusters, I used disc brake caliper grease.  That homemade measuring tool is the hard way to do it.  Just slot the end of the lower adjusting bolt with a dremel tool, I doubled up the cutting discs for the perfect width slot.  Then reassemble the brakes, back off both adjustments for maximum clearance, put on the drum.  Adjust the lower adjusting bolts using a screwdriver in that slot you made.  Put the drum, put a wrench on the lower adjusting bolt HEAD, torque the Lower adjusting bolt NUTS.  Put the drum back on, adjust the upper bolt, the ones with the springs, you are done.  On both cases the adjustment is made to tight up the clearance enough to drag, then back of the minimum amount so that the drag just goes away.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Sniper

[Crisjr14]

OK sniper so I moved the ones on sides already with those clips so guess now I'm totally messed up but I don't understand where your saying to make a slot can you show me please on this this picture I added as to where I'm going to do that and when you say use a screwdriver where would I use it at none of my have slots to add a screwdriver I am totally lost on this one If you can maybe break it down in pictures so i can better understand I'd appreciate it thanks 

[Sniper]

I can't show you on that picture as the LOWER adjusting bolts are not installed.

 

The one you have a red arrow pointing to is NOT involved in the slotting procedure I mention.  Those are the bolts you would adjust second, after the lower bolts.

[Sniper]

I went out and took a picture of my lower bolts.

 

You can see the slots in the end of the bolts.

[desoto1939]

your eccentrics should have to flat spots so that you can slip an open end wrench on the end to hold the eccentic so it does nt rotate.  Then you take your torgue wrench witht he appropriate socket and torque the nut on the back of the backing playe while also holding the eccentric pin so it does not rotate.

 

ON the front wheel you will have a castle nut with the slots that need to align up with the hole for the cotter pin on the rears it is just getting the nut tigh so that the eccentric does not move.

 

The final setting of tightening is done after you have adjusted the  heel and the toe to be within the 6/12 thousand measurement. After the they have been tightend then slip the drum on and make the final adjustment with the upper half moon adjusters.

 

Rich Hartung

[Crisjr14]

Sniper thank you so much for taking time to get that picture for me now I see what your saying so I will make some notes on the end of the adjustment bolt gonna give it a shot Here in a but thank you And desoto 1939 thank you but my problem is that it says to have arrows facing each other for some reason this side don't have any arrows like the other side and was asking is if someone can show me about where they are suppose to sit at on the inside lobes are supposed to be seated going thru the holes to try and get the drum back on to do the other adjustments as I can see they do have a high and low side as pointed in one of the pictures from earlier