Drums lock up when I torque anchor bolt nuts on 48 Desoto

[DJ194950]

I cut the slots in the bolts as shown by others and used what is named as a Drag Link Socket to hold. Others have shown pics of those also.

 

A quick look at EBay shows 100's for sale new and used. Most are 1/2" drive but several were 3/8" and a few were 1/4" drive.  Most in the $ 12-20 for  1- 2-3  sockets and usually free shipped. Many old cars had replaceable parts in the drag links therefore the tool for disassembly.

 

Just in case you still have problems with the front brakes. 

Just remember that after all the fun you are having you can be the one who answers others forum questions on brakes/adjustment/etc!  ?

 

DJ

[MarcDeSoto]

The rear brakes were a breeze to do, but I'm back to square one on the front brakes.  I've spent all afternoon trying to adjust the shoes, but now I can't get the drum on.  I got the drum on before, so I don't know why I can't get the drum on now.  I know the anchor bolt cams are tricky and so are the minor adjustment cams.  When I follow what the manual says, it just gets me into more trouble.  I'm at a loss now.  

[keithb7]

Start at square 1. Release upper cams all the way in. Release lower nuts that you've been playing with the past couple of days. Turn the lower eccentric bolts so the shoes heels are all the way in. Then the drum fits, right? You already sorted that out. Start adjusting from that point. Its not hard. Really. I have no complaints about these Lockheed brakes. They were fun to sort out and made me a better Mopar mechanic. 

 

Good times. No complaints.

Edited March 12, 2022 by keithb7

[desoto1939]

3 hours ago, MarcDeSoto said:

Just did my rear drums this way by holding the anchor bolt from the front with a box wrench and torquing the nut to spec from behind.  Worked like a charm.  The drum went on easily.  Don't know if it will be that easy on the front brakes, but I hope so.  Thanks for everybody's input on this.  Marc.

Yes do it the same way for the front brakes.

 

 

Rich Hartung

[harmony]

It took me awhile to understand what's happening as the adjusters are adjusted.  I too was puzzled because I also had the drums on at one point and then I took them off and tried to put them back on and they wouldn't go.

It was a poor design but in order to make it simple and cost effective they stayed with this method.  Maybe try watching what's going on with the drum off and rotating all 4 adjusters 360 degrees. 

As you turn a anchor bolt, the shoe will go in a small circle at that end. 

I know the service manual says to start with setting the anchor pivot cams, but I found it was simpler to start with the minor adjusters and do the fine tuning with the anchor cams. 

It's a balancing act because whichever you adjust, it will alter the position of the other part of the shoe.   

If you adjust the anchor bolt so you think you have it right where you want it, then once you adjust the minor adjuster so you have it right where you want it.  Now if you go back to the anchor bolt and take a measurement form the centre, it has now changed position, and vise versa.  

As I suggested if you turn each one 360 degrees and watch what's going on with the entire shoe you'll see what I mean.  It's still just as complicated once you figure that out, but at least you'll know that whatever you do to one adjustment it will alter the position of the shoe at the other end and at the centre of the shoe.  So it's kinda like give and take. 

 

You have that miller tool or the similar tool for brake adjustment.  So you could set it up so you have the anchor cam adjusted with about 9 th. clearance from the shoe to the arm on the tool.  While keeping it in that position at the end of the shoe, now adjust the minor adjuster and you'll see what I mean.  At some point that 9 th.  clearance will go from about 0th. to about 15th. 

At least once you understand how the shoes move at least you'll be able to get past the frustration phase.  

[harmony]

Here's something else that you might find helpful. For when you finally get the brakes adjusted.  While you have the drum off, and you're moving the minor adjuster, Take notes on your phone for each adjuster.  As an example I wrote 

"Front right wheel forward minor adjuster - counterclockwise to tighten" 

I used the word forward to mean the adjuster closest to the front of the car.  I'm also using the analog clock reference as if I'm looking at the backing plate from the back side of the wheel.

I made notes all adjusters individually.  It's so easy to forget, and once you go the wrong way, you might ( or at least myself) get a little confused and start to question. "do I go clockwise now or counter clockwise"

 

Granted the anchor bolt won't have to be adjusted for a long time with your new shoes.  But if you want to keep the wear even over the lifespan of the shoe, it's best to adjust the anchor as the shoe wears down. Otherwise all the wear will be coming off the toe of the shoe and nothing off the heel.   So it's a good idea to record what direction the anchor has to move as well, when that day comes.

 

 

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, harmony said:

Here's something else that you might find helpful. For when you finally get the brakes adjusted.  While you have the drum off, and you're moving the minor adjuster, Take notes on your phone for each adjuster.  As an example I wrote 

"Front right wheel forward minor adjuster - counterclockwise to tighten" 

I used the word forward to mean the adjuster closest to the front of the car.  I'm also using the analog clock reference as if I'm looking at the backing plate from the back side of the wheel.

I made notes all adjusters individually.  It's so easy to forget, and once you go the wrong way, you might ( or at least myself) get a little confused and start to question. "do I go clockwise now or counter clockwise"

 

Granted the anchor bolt won't have to be adjusted for a long time with your new shoes.  But if you want to keep the wear even over the lifespan of the shoe, it's best to adjust the anchor as the shoe wears down. Otherwise all the wear will be coming off the toe of the shoe and nothing off the heel.   So it's a good idea to record what direction the anchor has to move as well, when that day comes.

 

 

 

Or just download this pdf that shows the direction of the adjusters:

 

https://p15-d24.com/files/file/1-brakepdf/

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Sam Buchanan

[MarcDeSoto]

I got the left front brake drum on just fine and the nuts torqued.  but the right front brake is being a pain.  I finally got it so I could push the drum on, but can't turn the drum.  Maybe the shoes on the right side need a third shaving?  

[James_Douglas]

Hi Marc,

 

It looks fairly clear to me in the following:

https://www.web.imperialclub.info/Repair/Lit/Master/030/Page24.htm

 

Of course if one does not have the tool then ...

 

One way to accomplish setting the anchors without the tool is to have the slots in the end of the bolts. Just take two hack saw blades mounted in your hack saw and cut the slots. Then:

 

1. Make sure that the minor adjusters, the ones with the big springs, are full down.

2. Set the anchors, via the cam bolts, at full in from the base circle. (You can see this as you move the cam.)

3. Make sure that the anchor nuts are loose.

4. Slip on a drum.

5. Turn the anchor bolt, via the slot on the end of the bolt, with a screw driver until it hits the drum.

6. Back it off just enough to slip the drum off.
7.  Carefully tighten the anchor bolt.

8. Slip the drum back on.

9. Adjust the big spring minor adjuster.

10. Done. Have a beer.

 

 

James

[MarcDeSoto]

I do have that tool and I have used it.  Problem is what do you do when you adjust the shoes for maximum clearance and still can't get the drum on, or in my case, get the drum on and have a locked wheel?  

Edited March 12, 2022 by MarcDeSoto

[kencombs]

48 minutes ago, MarcDeSoto said:

I do have that tool and I have used it.  Problem is what do you do when you adjust the shoes for maximum clearance and still can't get the drum on, or in my case, get the drum on and have a locked wheel?  

Didn't you have them on and turning before final torquing at one time?

[desoto1939]

Marc: an we assume that you put the proper or appropriate drum on the correct side of the car?

 

Ok so you had the drums miced and they were cut to be 20k oversized or 11.20.  The brake guy then took that same measurement then put the appropriate shoes on the arcing machine to the appropriate setting and then cam ground the shoes to fit the drum.

 

You cam home and installed the shoes put the springs back in the orrect position andjusted the eccentric bolts and the upper half moon cams. You did not lock down the two eccentric castle nuts. This is a dry fitting to make sure the drum turns adn you get a whoosh sound from the brakes hitting the drum but the drum is free to turn with no binding.

 

Now you have to lock down the eccentric nut to keep it from moving. Take the drum off again Put your flat box wrench on the flats of the eccentric then put the torque wrench with appropriate socket on the back of the backing plate. Tighten the castle nut hold the box wrench as tight as you can and make sure that the eccentric pin does not rotate.  Do this for both of the eccentrics. Put the drum back on the spindle should go on with out any issues.

 

Do you have any type of lip on the base of the drum preventing you from pushing the drum over the shoes.?  All else then something is to set correctly.  Might have to back off the upper half moon came alittle.

 

Let us know what you find.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[MarcDeSoto]

Yes, I did all of that.  Had no problem with the rear brakes or the left front brake.  But the right front brake is giving me fits.  The shoes have been arced twice by C.H. Topping.  But I guess it was not enough.  So I put the shoes in a vise outside and wore all the protection in case they are made of asbestos, and shaved them again.  I used a jitterbug sander with 60 grit paper.  I made an even sixty passes over each shoe.  It is now maybe a little better, but still not good enough.  I can turn the drum with a lot of effort, but when I put on the spindle nut, it locks the drum up so that it doesn't move.  I guess I need to take a lot more material off these linings.  

[James_Douglas]

Marc,

 

1. Take drum off front right side.

2. loosen anchor cam bolt nuts so you can turn the anchors.

3. Make SURE that the minor adjustment cams are on the flat - as far in as possible.

4. Set the brake tool for 11.40 inch.

5. Place your brake tool pointer over the shoe lining as close to the anchor bolts as you can.

6. Turn the anchor bolts, ignore the arrow, so that you have the maximum space between the tool pointer and the shoe as you can get.

7. Then try to place the drum on and report what happens back to us.

[harmony]

I think I mentioned this earlier Marc, and I'm sure you don't want to tear apart your other front brake assembly.  But it's not impossible that the two return springs are fatigued.  So it might not hurt to take the return springs from the front left and try them on the right side.  If you notice any difference at all, then it might not hurt to order four new springs for the front assemblies. 

 

Since you got the front left on and functioning properly, it stands to reason that you're doing exactly the same procedure for the front right.  So assuming the rest of the components are in place.  It seems to be the only variable left that could make a difference. 

 

There is one other possibility, but I remember we talked about the push rods and I think you even shortened them slightly.  Is it possible that maybe you didn't shorten the pushrods on the front right?  

It's just a thought.   

Edited March 13, 2022 by harmony

[MarcDeSoto]

Thanks James and Harmony!  You both make excellent points.  You might be right about having weak brake springs.  Even though I did have a mechanic at the brake shop "test" them.  All he did was drop them on the floor and pronouce them OK.  I guess I could file the slots on the push rods and see what happens.  That might be better than taking more material off.  James, isn't turning the minor adjustment cams clockwise on the right and counter clockwise on the left until the cam stops putting them on the flat spot?  Anyway, I'll try what you guys suggest first.  Thanks, Marc.

[MarcDeSoto]

Well, today I used a bastard file to file the push rod slots.  Brakes were still too tight.  Then I sanded the shoes again the same way using 60 grit on a jitterbug with 60 passes on each shoe.  That improved the fit quite a bit.  I'm able to put the drum on easily and turn the drum with shoe contact.  But when I tighten the spindle nut even just finger tight, it locks up the drum.  So still more work to do I guess.  I looked for a spec on spindle nuts and could not find a torque spec in the manual.  Does anyone know?  

[harmony]

5 minutes ago, MarcDeSoto said:

Well, today I used a bastard file to file the push rod slots.  Brakes were still too tight.  Then I sanded the shoes again the same way using 60 grit on a jitterbug with 60 passes on each shoe.  That improved the fit quite a bit.  I'm able to put the drum on easily and turn the drum with shoe contact.  But when I tighten the spindle nut even just finger tight, it locks up the drum.  So still more work to do I guess.  I looked for a spec on spindle nuts and could not find a torque spec in the manual.  Does anyone know?  

 Are you talking about the castle nut that goes on after the bearing?  1 1/8"  I think

[harmony]

In this picture you can see the flat spot on the cam that James was talking about.  When the cam is in this position it is at it's most relaxed spot.  Since the shoe hides it, take a visual note as to the opposite side of the cam and how close it is the the bracket for the clip.  Thicker than a pencil but not as thick as a sharpie. I actually do have a piece of wood doweling that matches that distance.  I'm thinking it is  5/16" or 3/8"

[MarcDeSoto]

1 hour ago, harmony said:

 Are you talking about the castle nut that goes on after the bearing?  1 1/8"  I think

Yes, am I wrong in calling it the spindle nut?  Why doesn't the shop manual have a spec for it?  Or is it just something that the manual thinks all mechanics know?  I guess you can mark the outside of the cam spring so you could see when you reach the most relaxed spot when you are adjusting the cam.  Well I guess tomorrow I'm going to continue to sand more material off of the shoes.  

Edited March 14, 2022 by MarcDeSoto

[harmony]

10 minutes ago, MarcDeSoto said:

Yes, am I wrong in calling it the spindle nut?  Why doesn't the shop manual have a spec for it?  Or is it just something that the manual thinks all mechanics know?  I guess you can mark the outside of the cam spring so you could see when you reach the most relaxed spot when you are adjusting the cam.  

Generally speaking I tighten that nut up tight, then back it off until the hole for the cotter pin is visible and slip it through.  Then check to see that the wheel spins freely.  Then grab the top and bottom of the tire and see if there is any wobble at the bearing.  There shouldn't be any at all. This is done after you pack the bearing.  You can buy cheap bearing packers at any auto parts store.  Or you go old school method of putting the grease in the palm of your hand and working it into the bearing. Before you put the dust cap on ( after bending over the cotter pin) fill it with grease, but not completely full.  

Don't forget that large washer with the tab that goes between the bearing and that nut.

 

As for the cam, you'll find that if you turn it one way eventually it won't want to go anymore. That's because the flat section is against the shoe.  In theory if you keep turning that cam, yes it will start to turn again, if you apply enough force on that 3/4" adjuster nut.  I'm talking lots of force.

 

But there is no need to try that, I'm just saying it will keep turning with enough force.  So anyways once you realize that you are in that position and it doesn't want to turn anymore, Change direction and you will slowly start to climb up the ramp so to say, and the shoe will slowly move out towards the drum.  

Edited March 14, 2022 by harmony

[harmony]

8 minutes ago, harmony said:

Generally speaking I tighten that nut up tight, then back it off until the hole for the cotter pin is visible and slip it through.  Then check to see that the wheel spins freely.  Then grab the top and bottom of the tire and see if there is any wobble at the bearing.  There shouldn't be any at all. This is done after you pack the bearing.  You can buy cheap bearing packers at any auto parts store.  Or you go old school method of putting the grease in the palm of your hand and working it into the bearing. Before you put the dust cap on ( after bending over the cotter pin) fill it with grease, but not completely full.  

Don't forget that large washer with the tab that goes between the bearing and that nut.

 

As for the cam, you'll find that if you turn it one way eventually it won't want to go anymore. That's because the flat section is against the shoe.  In theory if you keep turning that cam, yes it will start to turn again, if you apply enough force on that 3/4" adjuster nut.  I'm talking lots of force.

 

But there is no need to try that, I'm just saying it will keep turning with enough force.  So anyways once you realize that you are in that position and it doesn't want to turn anymore, Change direction and you will slowly start to climb up the ramp so to say, and the shoe will slowly move out towards the drum.  

However,,,,,,,  you're saying that as soon as you tighten that nut hand tight, the drum/wheel won't turn, right?

Something is wrong there Marc.  At this point nothing should be interfering with the bearing/race on the back side, or the bearing on the front side of the drum. It's only when you tighten the castle nut  with a socket or channel lock plyers that you make it tight enough that the roller bearings are unable to move.  

Did you replace the seal on the inside of the drum? I'm wondering if it is in the wrong position, or perhaps it's missing?? 

Oh btw, don't forget to pack the bearing on the inside of the drum too.

[harmony]

1 hour ago, MarcDeSoto said:

Yes, am I wrong in calling it the spindle nut?  Why doesn't the shop manual have a spec for it?  Or is it just something that the manual thinks all mechanics know?  I guess you can mark the outside of the cam spring so you could see when you reach the most relaxed spot when you are adjusting the cam.  Well I guess tomorrow I'm going to continue to sand more material off of the shoes.  

I'm terrible at calling a part by it's designated name, so I'm the wrong guy to say yes or no as to that nuts proper name.  I just call it the bearing castle nut.  That way my brain knows what I'm talking about.

[MarcDeSoto]

I repacked the outer bearing, but did not repack the inner bearing.  I did that but it was probably 25-30 years ago.  I thought that the grease would still be good.  So you are saying that tightening the spindle nut should not lock up the drum.  So something must be wrong.  I will check my drum and examine the inner bearing.  

[harmony]

18 minutes ago, MarcDeSoto said:

I repacked the outer bearing, but did not repack the inner bearing.  I did that but it was probably 25-30 years ago.  I thought that the grease would still be good.  So you are saying that tightening the spindle nut should not lock up the drum.  So something must be wrong.  I will check my drum and examine the inner bearing.  

I'm thinking you should get as much of the old grease out of the back side of the hub as possible.  Maybe use a tablespoon or something similar.  Then get in there with a rag or several rags and clean off that inner bearing as much as possible. This might be a bit of a stretch, but maybe that bearing is worn out.  If it is in good condition it sounds like it would welcome some new wheel bearing grease anyways.  If it's in good shape, pack it by massaging the grease into it with the ends of your fingers. Lots of wheel bearing grease.

Edited March 14, 2022 by harmony