Way off topic 1993 caravan transmission

[JBNeal]

If your tires are not all the same brand, model and size, the suspension will act a little squirrelly.  The tires are considered another spring in the suspension, and differing tires will have different spring rates.  I needed to replace 2 tires on the QuadCab a few years ago and was surprised to find out that Firestone had discontinued the Transforce HT and replaced it with the HT2...similar but not the same tread, kinda whip-sawed in corners and hoooo-boy was that thing squirrelly in emergency avoidance turns.  When I replaced the other pair earlier this year, that truck was as right as rain in every handling situation

[kencombs]

L  Los, are you using the original bolts on the lower strut mounting?  If so, there are aftermarket bolts that can help.  Rather than trying to explain here is a video:

I've used similar bolts on some GM products that had been damaged in a wreck to get them to align.  Just couldn't get it pulled perfect on a frame machine. 

 

Bottom line: It is very possible that the alignment issue is not the struts.  Older bodies can become misshapen from many road shocks, or one big one.  

[Tooljunkie]

18 hours ago, JBNeal said:

If your tires are not all the same brand, model and size, the suspension will act a little squirrelly.  The tires are considered another spring in the suspension, and differing tires will have different spring rates.  I needed to replace 2 tires on the QuadCab a few years ago and was surprised to find out that Firestone had discontinued the Transforce HT and replaced it with the HT2...similar but not the same tread, kinda whip-sawed in corners and hoooo-boy was that thing squirrelly in emergency avoidance turns.  When I replaced the other pair earlier this year, that truck was as right as rain in every handling situation

Buddy had an 86 Cougar, two different brands. That thing did the watusi no matter how straight he held the wheel. 

[Tooljunkie]

12 hours ago, kencombs said:

L  Los, are you using the original bolts on the lower strut mounting?  If so, there are aftermarket bolts that can help.  Rather than trying to explain here is a video:

I've used similar bolts on some GM products that had been damaged in a wreck to get them to align.  Just couldn't get it pulled perfect on a frame machine. 

 

Bottom line: It is very possible that the alignment issue is not the struts.  Older bodies can become misshapen from many road shocks, or one big one.  

I have used them. Trick is to measure them and look for same size bolts. They really arent listed for every application. I needed to correct rear camber on a toyota, and arrogant parts store guy supplied the kits that would take hours to install. I supplied the part number i wanted, and achieved the same result in a matter of minutes. 

[Los_Control]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The tires are different, all are Hankook 195 75 14. The 2 with 25k miles on them are Ironman. The 2 new are kinergy st.

When I ordered from Tire rack, they did not have the Ironman only kinergy.

I thought they were close enough they would run fine together? I might be wrong here.

 

I still need to fix the camber though. Seems it is suppose to be set at 1 degree positive camber.

Passenger side looks fine. Drivers side looks to be 2 or 2.5 degree positive. Not terrible, but not right.

The kimber bolts would be enough to do what I need for sure. Thanks for the tip @kencombs

When that is corrected, and is still squirrely, then will suspect tires.

[Tooljunkie]

If you measure bolt diametef and google it - example 14mm camber adjusting bolt it will come up, and you will have a moog number to work with 

[JBNeal]

Something that could be tried that is not so labor intensive might be adjusting tire pressures up or down...on the QuadCab, Dodge recommends running 80psi on the rear for optimum payload, but I rarely load that thing up as the truck hauls light loads or just myself.  So I lowered the pressure to 75 in dry summer months and 70 for the rest of the year, and the ride is much smoother, tire wear appears to be normal, traction is very good.

[Los_Control]

Not sure if it shows up in the photo. The other side is fine, just this one side the tire is leaning.

 

If I use a 4' drywall T square on the passenger side to measure from.

The center of the tire hits the straight edge, there is equal 3/8" gap at top and bottom.

 

Measuring from same spot on the drivers side, the tire hits the straight edge on top & in the middle & 1/2" gap at the bottom.

 

So if I were to change the camber and bring the bottom out to 3/8" that would also bring the top in so only the middle of the tire touched .... Make camber on both sides equal & am hoping that will fix the issue I am nit picking.

Seriously someone else might say it is just fine the way it is, I have driven it for years and know it is not where it should be.

I just have to correct it ... To do that is a second photo of the actual strut. Lot of material there on the left.

Just need to take it loose from the axle, hog out a 1/8" or so and re-install.

A real mechanic could probably do it in 30 min ... or change the camber bolt to a special smaller bolt ... 30 min.

Me will take all day.  Just a fitment problem with modern aftermarket parts. I should have bought Monroe's!

[Los_Control]

1 hour ago, JBNeal said:

Something that could be tried that is not so labor intensive might be adjusting tire pressures up or down

You are correct on that also ... wont fix this issue but something that needs to be done.

 

I use to run 60 psi in the front and 65 psi in the rear on my work van with 10 ply tires 80 psi max.

And I carried a heavy load daily with all the tools a remodel carpenter would need, plus the materials I carried.

Trust me it had built in drawers and shelfs and every square inch was filled. I carried a lot of weight.

Now if I was going to haul a trailer or have a lumber order set on my roof racks, then I would pump the tires up to 80 psi.

With normal load 60 psi the tires held good shape and it rode good. I'm talking 3 drawers 4' long 1 was filled with plumbing parts, one with large containers of every screw known to man, the other was filled with Routers, 5 drill motors, router & drill bits. Then you add the tools, air compressor, chop saw, every saw you can think of ... then you need paints & stains and putty ... then stop by home depot on the way to the job site in the morning to pick up lumber for the daily job.

 

I am just thinking  @JBNealcould lower their air pressure down quite a bit and get a decent ride. 75 psi is going to be a bumpy ride, while 60/65 will probably be perfect and provide a decent ride. You may even get away with 55 psi if you not loaded down with tools.

 

Air caries the load. If you add 80 psi & look at the tire foot print. Then start lowering  the air pressure to find where the foot print start changing, you just found a good starting point for the air pressure in your tires.

As it was explained to me in a school room class when in the tire business. 

A tire with zero load and zero air psi is not technically under inflated. When you start adding weight to the tire, you need to add air to carry the weight. ... same time you want your tires to have a decent foot print.

 

Just like a 2 ton chain hoist, 2 ton is the max you want to carry on it ... no problem to carry 1 ton ... on a 2 ton hoist.

Same with a tire. Just saying if you normally drive your truck empty, 45 psi might be what you need ... I needed 60 psi because a work truck and heavy load ... 80 when heavier load.

[Tooljunkie]

Vehicle weight compared to max weight rating of tire. Do the math. 
my Fargo got 10 ply tires. 
with nil for tire pressure its hardly noticeable. Like 10 psi. 
i was a little suprised, when it was pulling a little and gauge barely registered. They hold up a lot, i could probably run 18 psi with no ill effects. 

[Los_Control]

God bless Uncle Grumpy. But the only time his truck moved, he was hooking up the trailer to go haul something.

He needed 80 psi and could fit two cars on a very heavy trailer.

 

Same time if you drive the truck to go purchase a loaf of bread ... 80 psi is way over kill for the tire.

 

[Los_Control]

Kinda looking for opinions here on repairing modern ignition systems ... yeah this one is 27 years old, almost a antique, modern to me 

 

I have a new problem, no spark to plugs. Had to have it flatbed home the other day.

Not looking for advice  on how to   troubleshoot the problem. With youtube & a manual, I have a plan.

 

The video shows starting with testing the coil, then the ASD relay, move to the cam sensor then crank sensor and all that told him the ECM (computer) was bad.

 

In the old days we would go through and replace the whole ignition system in a normal tune up ... cap, rotor, points, condenser, wires & plugs.

 

Why not do that today? I understand it cost more today. $200 for computer, $50 for coils sensors are $20 the relay is cheap. I will be in it $300+ for a tune up. I did replace plugs & wires already. Not even a monthly car payment for some people.

 

I just 'feel' if I diagnose & find the relay or a coil is bad, The whole ignition system has same miles and years on it.

I would not feel comfortable with just replacing the  coil or relay, I would just be waiting for the  next piece in the ignition system to break . To me the shotgun approach and replace it all is a proper way?

What say the real mechanics here?

 

[kencombs]

All I can say is that 'new' parts are not necessarily  'good' parts.  I would rather have a known good used electrical part than an unknown new one.  Sorta like how most of us feel about modern condensors.  I won't even mention country of origin because everyone has problems with quality control these days.

[Sniper]

I think Ken is on to something.  While not specific to your ride I have heard that some aftermarket parts even from vendors with a good name, are crap.  Some have taken to hitting the boneyards to find OEM parts rather than use new aftermarket stuff in certain cases.

 

Me?  I just replace what's bad unless the cost is so reasonable that replacing more doesn't bother me.  O don't generally clean and reuse plugs.  For example, if I pull them an they look good and the gap is ok I reuse them.  If they are crusty or the electrodes are worn I just replace them all, they are cheap.

 

 

[Los_Control]

You have a excellent point there Ken. I was thinking modern electronic ignition systems exempt from the issues our pre 1970's cars have. Just thinking there is more demand and a little better quality control on them.

 

I

Just now, Sniper said:

Me?  I just replace what's bad unless the cost is so reasonable that replacing more doesn't bother me.

Here is a very good point, what is reasonable? Will give exact temp Wed 5:30 pm is 96 degrees. This is September 8th.

All fine & good when at home in AC ... what if you break down 10 miles from town in 100 degree weather?

What then is a reasonable price to pay for dependability?  Be honest this could be life threatening under the right conditions. What would you pay for a working coil in the middle of the desert 100 degree heat?

 

I guess my current plan is to replace each individual item. will do it one item at a time. I will find the bad item and toss it in the trash. Then continue to replace the rest. I then will keep the old parts as spares in the glove box. Including the computer. Like we use to do. Who knows, the parts may save a life someday.

 

 

[Sniper]

Every one has to be comfortable with their decisions.  Until about two weeks ago I didn't even have a spare tire for the 51.

 

Conversely for the work truck, 2019 Silverado, I have a 12v air compressor, tire patch kit, a spare, two different cell phones with two different carriers, water, first aid kit, etc.  But I don't take the 51 out of town, much less into the oil patch.

[Dave72dt]

Test first to find the known bad part(s), then replace  as much or as little as you want.  What happens if you do your "tuneup" and you still have no spark?  It may be as simple as a broken wire or blown fuse but you won't know unless you test it.

[Tooljunkie]

Please refresh my memory. Year and engine size. 
all the coils dont go bad. Cam/crank sensors are basically the start of where spark is lost. Scan tool is vital as you can see if the sensors are doing their job. Power to coils? Key on and check with a test light. Ground side fires coils. Injectors same thing. 
fuel pump run? I dont think the newer dodges use asd relay. 

[Los_Control]

It is a 1993 3.3L engine. Has a single coil, pretty sure it is original. 180k miles on it.

Seems to me this is where all the volatile action happens. I am replacing it just because. I already ordered a new coil, NGK I'm hoping they still make good ignition products.

 

To test the coil, "I will do so today"  Just a 12v test light on the +B wire, turn the key to on position. Test light should light up for 1 second. If this happens, then the coil will be faulty. If not then time to check ASD relay, just swap it out with windshield wiper relay,  and see if that works. Next step is to test cam & crank sensors ... kinda a guessing game without a proper oscilloscope, but can get a good idea if they are working .... honestly am going to skip them and go straight to replacing the computer.

 

I honestly think it is the computer. this thread was originally started because of a strange issue going in and out of limp mode. The solution was a loose wiring harness on the transmission.

So the computer for several months has been getting all kinds of mis-information sent to it. Every time it goes into limp mode it resets the computer, then it has to re-learn when to shift. Suggested to drive in town and also the freeway for it to learn properly. Then it jumps into limp mode 1 or 2 times a week for 6 or 10 months. The computer really has been worked hard. Lets convert 180k miles into hours. My calculator shows it has a buttload of hours, then being 27 years old?

 

As @Sniper says ... depends what you are comfortable with.

If I replaced the coil and it runs again, GREAT! I ordered the new relay without testing. The computer is next.

No way I can let my wife make the 6 hour trip to Albuquerque to visit the daughter, until comfortable all is replaced and working properly.

 

I would be fired if I was a professional mechanic. How many people you know trying to make a survivor out of a 93 caravan?

 

 

 

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

I would be fired if I was a professional mechanic.

 

It's nice that you hold professional mechanics in such high esteem.  Most of the them are shot gunners.

 

Some time ago, I took my 71 Dart in for an alignment at Midas.  I had just rebuilt the front end, all of it.  They told me I had a bad ball joint and it needed replaced.

 

I took it home and it was a loose wheel bearing adjustment.  It was things like this and others that make me do all my own work.

 

While I do have the hand tools to mount and balance my own tires, when I put the 17's together I took them over to Firestone for mounting and balancing simply because I could not get that low profile tire to mount.  Guess i forgot my can of spinach.

[Los_Control]

Just now, Sniper said:

While I do have the hand tools to mount and balance my own tires, when I put the 17's together I took them over to Firestone for mounting and balancing simply because I could not get that low profile tire to mount.  Guess i forgot my can of spinach.

The taller the sidewall the more flex you have to work with. Maybe next time get your porta power out  

 

Yeah I imagine most modern mechanics are just parts replacers. The way they are taught in school.

I am trying to look into the future and prevent issues from happening on the side of the road.

My best automotive repair shop in town is full constantly. I went to them once to diagnose a problem with his OBD1 scanner.

He did a great job telling me what the issue was with his snap on scanner ... then he gave me a address to a shop 60 miles away and said take it there.

In other words,  I'm not working on this 30 year old sh*t box, hit the bricks kid.

I guess those that can, know better and wont. Those that will, we probably should know better ourselves.

Thats a 30 year old car ... almost impossible to find a shop to work on a 70 year old car. We are kinda forced to work on them ourselves or keep up with the times.

[Sniper]

You know, I have long dreamed of opening up a classic car garage where I just work on the old stuff.  Problem is too many people would think a 93 is a classic, to me it is not.  Basically, if it has a computer it's not a classic to me.

 

The funny thing is my background is electronics, so computer controlled cars to not phase me, but I'd rather not fool with them, that doesn't make me happy.  I'd rather adjust some points or tune a carb than fool with modern stuff.  Something deeply satisfying to me taking an old car that doesn't run right and returning it in top shape.

[Los_Control]

Just now, Sniper said:

too many people would think a 93 is a classic, to me it is not.  Basically, if it has a computer it's not a classic to me

I get it totally. I never thought my dream car would be a 1993 soccer mom's mini van.

People just do not want to work on it at this stage.

 

Today it is old enough, just about everything can be done at home ... If it was newer, would need to get a computer then send it off to make it work with my vin number .... I do not need that.

 

Just a old 1993 soccer moms mini van that nobody cares about and we love it. Smiles for miles, no security updates or entertainment updates ... drive it and go. It does not run at this moment, I have tremendous faith in it.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Los_Control

[Eneto-55]

I have had three MoPar mini-vans to date, a 93 Chrysler Town & Country (3.3, like yours), a 2000 T & C (3.8. More power for the Missouri hills, but less MPG as well), and now a 2010 Dodge Grand Caravan 4.0).  The 93 was definitely my favorite. Total class.  The best designed mini-van ever (in my opinion).  Unfortunately, the salt got it, so I had to let it go.  Well, actually I could't let it go to anyone else.  We drove it till it wouldn't go anymore, with parts of it falling off underneath.  I cut it up with a saws-all.    (Actually hauled it all to the scrap yard in an S-10 PU - several loads, of course.  And no part of it was too heavy for me to put in the PU by myself..  Just had to use a floor jack to get the engine block up high enough to scoot into the bed of the PU, and also for the front suspension.) 

 

First I was going to build a trailer out of it, like I did with a 68 Polara station wagon years back.  It had too much cancer.  The final straw was when I realized that the leaf spring was actually rusted in two at the eye, and was just riding on the spring perch. 

 

Then I kept the front fenders, hood, front doors and parts of the side panels, the rear hatch.  Wanted to make a roadster out of it.  Narrow the body, and reverse it, so that "it would go back the way it came".  (The hood was going to be the deck lid, and the upper part of the rear hatch was to be the radiator shell.  Suicide doors.)  But I also knew I didn't have a place to do this work, didn't have the required tools, or the proper skills, just the dream, that's all. So I sold some parts, but the grill and the emblem is hanging on my wall at my business place.  That car held a lot of memories from when our children were small, listening to "Whit's End" recordings while traveling.  But it was a great vehicle, and sharp looking too.  (Ours was forest green with the wood-grain side panels.)

 

(I know I ain't helped you nothin', but I enjoyed the walk down the memory track....)

Edited September 9, 2021 by Eneto-55

[JBNeal]

At one time, Chrysler recommended replacing oxygen sensors every 60k miles, and I read articles about how 02 sensor sensitivity declined over time, resulting in power loss, reduced fuel economy, and fouled catalytic converter.  Other sensor inputs to the ECM could suffer the same fate with age as material degradation could lead to inaccurate readings.  Relays may stick, but solid state electronics can have sealing epoxy fractures that allow moisture infiltration.  So it might be worth the peace of mind to update input sensors so that a known baseline for engine performance is established.  A refurbished ECM might be worth the investment, if they are even available.

 

A sorta cautionary tale is what I dealt with on my 1992 John Deere 425 that is not fuel injected but has a logic circuit with sensor inputs.  When it was about 17 yrs old, it would randomly shut down...hot, cold, not so hot, dry weather, wet weather, smooth or rough acreage, didn't matter...it could run for weeks, then have fits for days...I did all the tests, everything was to specifications, but the random shutdowns persisted for another 4 yrs...maddening...eventually I realized that the 3 connected safety switches (seat, PTO, park brake) could have an internal dithering issue because of their age, so I replaced all of them...problem solved.  So with aging components and computer control, random problems can be very difficult to identify, no matter the size of the machine.