Tainted Gasoline

[minicooper]

This is frustrating. 

 

6 weeks ago, I put in a new fuel tank, fuel line, filter, and rebuilt the carb after a rusty tank gumped up the system on by B3C. Last night I was going to go for a drive but was low on gas, so I added 3 gallons from a can that I had filled up 2 weeks ago. I think it must have had condensate (water) in it because within five minutes of running the truck, it shut off and wouldn't run - it would startup and sputter a few minutes then stop, I made it home before but finally quit. It doesn't smell like a lot of gas is getting to the carb, so maybe the fuel pump decide to pick the same time to fail? But unlikely.

 

I used the same gas in my mower and it runs OK, but water in the gas seems like the culprit.

 

Can I pump out the gas, drain the carburetor and fuel line instead of draining and dropping the tank? Could I have done damage to the engine in the 15 minutes I fiddled with it trying to get the truck home without a tow? Or is there an additive to get rid of the water, I could use?

 

Roland

[Jeff Balazs]

There is a gas dryer I have used a few times in other vehicles. It is called Sahara gas treatment. If there is just condensate in the tank this should work. If you have a big slug of water it there then it needs to be drained out. You probably did not do any engine damage but you may need to pull the carb and change filters.

I have found it best to do a treatment on every other tank of gas due to ethanol blend wee have. I dose 4 0z. of MMO in every other tankful. Has worked well in my daily driver.

Jeff

[Young Ed]

I drained the tank in my 46 wc with some rubber fuel line and a cheap elec pump. Just be careful making the electrical connection away from the tank. 

[minicooper]

8 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said:

There is a gas dryer I have used a few times in other vehicles. It is called Sahara gas treatment. If there is just condensate in the tank this should work. If you have a big slug of water it there then it needs to be drained out. You probably did not do any engine damage but you may need to pull the carb and change filters.

I have found it best to do a treatment on every other tank of gas due to ethanol blend wee have. I dose 4 0z. of MMO in every other tankful. Has worked well in my daily driver.

Jeff

Thanks much. I'll try the Sahara and see how it goes, I can't imagine there would have been too much water in that can.

[JBNeal]

additional information - Marvel Mystery Oil Usage as a Fuel Stabilizer

[minicooper]

40 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

additional information - Marvel Mystery Oil Usage as a Fuel Stabilizer

What mysterious ingredients are in those bottles? ?

[kencombs]

Seems to me you have leapt to a conclusion prematurely.  First I would confirm the cause.  Take to top off carb or take the fuel line loose, any way to get a fuel sample and check for water.  The symptoms you described could also be caused by fuel starvation, fuel pump, new filter bad, stuck float or valve, air leak at one of the new connections,   etc.

Edited April 14, 2020 by kencombs

[minicooper]

2 minutes ago, kencombs said:

Seems to me you have leapt to a conclusion prematurely.  First I would confirm the cause.  Take to top off carb or take the fuel line loose, any way to get a fuel sample and check for water.  The symptoms you described could also be caused by fuel starvation, fuel pump, new filter bad, stuck float or valve, air leak at one of the new connections,   etc.

I haven't leapt that far yet.

 

My first thought was water tainted fuel, because the issue started less than 10 minutes after fueling. I mentioned the mechanical fuel pump as an alternate cause in my post (it is Chinese made, about 5 years old), but the fuel seemed more likely.

 

Everything is air tight, from the tank to the carburetor, single steel fuel line, no rubber hoses or clamps, the fuel pump filter bowl stays full and not leaking. I checked the carburetor bolts and made sure they were snug. I plan to let it sit for a few days then check for fuel/water separation, before I drain the tank, not sure I will see that in the small sample in the filter bowl, though. I will check the float and replace the filter just in case.

 

Thanks for the suggestions,

 

-Roland

 

 

[Jerry Roberts]

If you do decide to drain the tank , there is a reason that there is a drain plug in the bottom . As others have said , check the other things first . 

[bkahler]

About 15 years ago I stopped at a small out of the way gas station in Arkansas and filled up my Triumph Spitfire.  I got about 3/4 of a mile from the station on my way home before I sputtered to a stop.  The Spitfire has twin Stromberg carburetors and what I found was both fuel bowls were full of water.  I had to pull the tops off of each carburetor and using a rag to soak up the water.  I repeated this process about 10 times before I got home

 

I didn't buy gas from that station again!

 

Brad

 

[T120]

Having lived in the north for most of my life and having encountered on occasion moisture in fuel ,(either frozen or condensed), upon investigation have attributed this as the problem, have either used a gasoline antifreeze,(marketed under various brand names), or simply used inexpensive methanol as a fix.?

Edited April 16, 2020 by T120
added photo

[minicooper]

Update:

 

I tested the tank for water, and didn't see any (I let a good amount sit in a glass jar and didn't see any separation after an hour or so, then tested the gas in the can I used to fill the tank with, same. I rigged up a gravity feed gas can/fuel tank with fresh gas to check and see if it was the fuel pump (the pump was filling the filter bowl but not sure if there was enough pressure), plenty of flow into the carb from the can. Same behavior, runs normal for a few minutes, then sputters, dies and won't run. I cleaned and put a rebuild kit in the carburetor, reinstalled it, same behavior.

 

Thinking maybe the coil is going bad, since the engine will start cold but die as it starts to warm up. I ordered a new Pertronix II coil since I have their conversion kit installed. Coil is 5 years old, shouldn't have gone this quick. 

 

-Roland

[Radarsonwheels]

How come nobody mentioned the sediment bowl under the fuel pump? I always cracked that lil bad larry open first to see if I had gas/water layers in it or a big pile of junk goin on. It’s like a little extra thick shot glass with a loop/thumbscrew bracket- comes off in a jiff

[minicooper]

Just now, Radarsonwheels said:

How come nobody mentioned the sediment bowl under the fuel pump? I always cracked that lil bad larry open first to see if I had gas/water layers in it or a big pile of junk goin on. It’s like a little extra thick shot glass with a loop/thumbscrew bracket- comes off in a jiff

Thanks! I took it off and checked it a couple of weeks back, it was clean.

 

-Roland

[minicooper]

I put in a new coil last night. Truck started and ran great, smooth - until it warmed up to 180 degrees (on the temp gauge), then quit. It started back up but wouldn't run, it sputtered to a halt after catching - almost like it's starved for fuel, but there seems to be plenty of fuel pressure.

 

I had a new voltage regulator on hand so I went ahead and installed it (and polarized the generator), but still the same.

 

So far I have checked the fuel for water (don't think it has any in it - I couldn't see any separation in the fuel bowls), doubled-checked the fuel pump, replaced the fuel filter, pulled the carb, cleaned and put a rebuild kit in it. I also checked for intake manifold and vacuum for leaks.

 

I really placed my bets on the coil.

 

Could be the Pertronix electronic ignition, or spark plugs - heat making them fail? Or maybe go ahead and drain the tank and fuel system anyway? I also have a spare fuel pump, that I could put in, maybe heat is making it fail?

 

Lastly, could it be vapor lock? Maybe this fuel has a lot more ethanol in it than normal, if excessive ethanol can lead to vapor lock?

 

Any help diagnosing this would be greatly appreciated,

Roland

[JBNeal]

Is your carburetor float needle sticking...?

[minicooper]

36 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

Is your carburetor float needle sticking...?

Thanks. I replaced it when I cleaned and rebuilt the carb last weekend. I checked the movement and float level before I reassembled it.

 

roland

[JBNeal]

I had carburetor problems for years, rebuilding that B&B so many times that I could do it with my eyes closed before swapping out carbs...you might be having an issue with a jet fouling or a problem with the casting that as the metal heats, a crack is opening up to allow too much air in the wrong place...or the carb flange isn't sealing to the manifold...or the carb flange vacuum passage to the manifold is partially blocked...

[minicooper]

35 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

I had carburetor problems for years, rebuilding that B&B so many times that I could do it with my eyes closed before swapping out carbs...you might be having an issue with a jet fouling or a problem with the casting that as the metal heats, a crack is opening up to allow too much air in the wrong place...or the carb flange isn't sealing to the manifold...or the carb flange vacuum passage to the manifold is partially blocked...

 

Thanks, I have a spare b&b that needs to be rebuilt, I will try that one and see if it solves the issue. 

[Jeff Balazs]

When you originally installed the Pertronix module did you also install one of their matched coils at the time? Or were you running it with an original ignition system coil? Doesn't sound like a typical ignition module failure....but I suppose it is possible?

 

You might consider rigging a temporary fuel supply with fresh fuel before you go much further. It is possible that the quality of the fuel it is getting may be causing this.

Hth, Jeff

[T120]

...Half split troubleshooting.?

[minicooper]

4 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

When you originally installed the Pertronix module did you also install one of their matched coils at the time? Or were you running it with an original ignition system coil? Doesn't sound like a typical ignition module failure....but I suppose it is possible?

 

You might consider rigging a temporary fuel supply with fresh fuel before you go much further. It is possible that the quality of the fuel it is getting may be causing this.

Hth, Jeff

I bought their Flamethrower coil (5 years ago) and purchased a new one, same model.

[Jeff Balazs]

You may also want to do a careful check on the condition of your distributor cap and rotor. Another thing to check is the ignition switch itself. They contacts and wire connections can get dirt and moisture in them and this could cause problems. Doesn't hurt to clean and spray them with WD40 once in a while. I am not saying that you have an ignition related problem........just suggesting possibilities that can be eliminated.

 

I suspect the gas you have may have actually gone bad. It happens. If that is the problem no amount of tinkering will solve the problem.

Jeff

 

 

[minicooper]

On 4/26/2020 at 10:31 AM, Jeff Balazs said:

You may also want to do a careful check on the condition of your distributor cap and rotor. Another thing to check is the ignition switch itself. They contacts and wire connections can get dirt and moisture in them and this could cause problems. Doesn't hurt to clean and spray them with WD40 once in a while. I am not saying that you have an ignition related problem........just suggesting possibilities that can be eliminated.

 

I suspect the gas you have may have actually gone bad. It happens. If that is the problem no amount of tinkering will solve the problem.

Jeff

 

 

First, thanks for all the advice on solving this, second, I am closer to solving but still haven’t. And I’ve eliminated most everything I can think of.

 

I drained the fuel tank and lines and there was a lot of water in it. Refilled the tank with fresh gas, added some Heet to collect and burn off any left over water. Still Wouldn’t run, would start then sputter to a halt. Rebuilt the carburetor, added new filter. I checked the fuel pump pressure and it was low (about 2 psi) so I replaced the pump with one I had on hand, about 5 years old. Still no go.

 

To eliminate the pump, tank and lines, I set set up an “IV” with fresh gasoline. Starts and runs like a champ. Let it run until it was up to temp the shut it off. Starts right up.

 

Since I had put the output of the fuel pump in a can to collect the fuel whi,e I ran the engine, I measured the output volume and although the pressure is OK (5 psi) the volume is low - 1 oz per minute, a trickle that can’t keep up with the carb. So the new fuel pump seems like it’s no good. Both pumps can’t be bad? Could be something wrong with the lobe or the way I installed the pump? It went in easily and is pumping, but very little, when I increase the throttle, the flow decreases more, so I can’t imagine it would be an install issue.

 

I’ll pull the line from the tank tomorrow and see if it’s plugged, it’s a new line though.

 

-roland

 

 

[Jerry Roberts]

Time to install an electric pump . if not permanent , at least a very good test to eliminate the lines, tank , and vented cap as potential problems .