One more time on the ever popular P15 frame serial numbers

[BobT-47P15]

As most of you know, the number stamped on the side of a P15 (46--early 49) Plymouth engine block is what most people and license agencies considered the serial or title-ing

number for the car back when.  THERE WERE, OF COURSE, SOME EXCEPTIONS.   The V I N (vehicle identification number) as used today had not been invented yet.  That serial number was also

stamped into the left rear portion of the frame.....about 6 inches ahead of the gas tank filler neck......right below where the body comes over the frame.  So---the two items should match

numerically.   And they did.....until someone replaced the motor with either a rebuilt or one from another car.   Nowadays -- sometimes the engine number gets used on titles.....or

that little tag on the driver's door post.  Sometimes if the car was junked or the title lost, the Highway Patrol might issue it's own version of a VIN tag.  Or, there is the Briggs body number

tag  on the firewall.   All sorts of possibilities. 

 

When I recently removed my left rear tire to work on the brakes.....I saw that frame number again.....thought I would post about it for anyone who might have missed earlier missives

regarding the location.  

 

First of all -- those numbers are usually covered by dirt, rust, road tar, paint........or all of the preceeding.    The numbers are put on the frame with what I presume to be a

hammer and number/letter punches.....so they are indented.  You can use a wire brush, wire wheel for the drill, sandpaper, some type solvent......whatever will remove the crud and

expose the numbers.  The thing always begins with "P15" followed by several numbers.  I'm not sure what that string of numbers means, other than being a serial #.

 

By locating your frame number, you can at least know what the original number was, whether it is useful for any more than that in today's world is questionable.  

A couple pics of my number,,,,am going to clean it up a bit more soon.    Hope this article was a little helpful.  Any further comments welcome.

 

 

   

 

[Eneto-55]

Since first hearing that some states used this engine/frame number as the identifying number on titles, I have wondered if anyone has ever compiled a list of states that used this number, as opposed to the one on the A pillar (on the left side for all but some early P15s) which actually says on it that it is the 'Serial Number".  Or maybe some jurisdictions within a state used that number, and other areas in the same state used the engine/frame number, who knows?  But I would have thought that there would be paper work issued by the factories that had that information, if not an official document with each vehicle that stated the ID number.  Or could it have been even MORE inconsistent, if one clerk at the same title agency used one number, and his/her coworker used the other?  

I grew up in Oklahoma, and as far as I know (from vehicles my Dad had, etc.), they always used the Serial Number on the body as the ID.  I also have reason to be curious about Nebraska, because I own a car I picked up there for a parts car back in 81, and would now like to get a title if possible.  Some 10 years ago or so I applied for a title search from the State of Nebraska, using the last vehicle registration tag number, and the number from the left A pillar, the tag labeled "Serial Number".  They didn't find anything.  Now I wonder if I should submit another request, using the number on the frame.  (The engine was blown - big hole in the side of the block - so I scraped the block back when I tore it down for what parts were worth keeping.)  The car is at my brother's place (over 1000 miles from me), so I can't just go out and get that number. 

 

If anyone knows what the practice was in Nebraska, I would sure like to know.  In fact, I'll start this here.

 

Number Used on Title in each state, as known:

Oklahoma - Serial Number plate on body

 

Edit: I should have gone out & looked before I said that it says "Serial Number" right on the A pillar tag.  It just has the number.  I was thinking it did because the manuals tell where to find the serial number, and state that location.  I've never seen any mention (in an original manual) of the frame number.  (I can't read mine, and I hate to scratch off the paint, because I used Zink Chromate for its reputation for protecting from rust.  I can just make out the P15 and that it starts with '20', which IS the same range as the plate on the A pillar tag.)

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Eneto-55
correct misinformation

[Merle Coggins]

My truck originally came from Iowa and it was titled with the Chassis Serial Number, although there was a typo in it. They had an S in place of a 5. It's still that way as Wisconsin wasn't interested in correcting it.

[greg g]

Mine is registered (no titles till 73) by serial number, as it was on the Penna. registration I bought the car.  Three years ago my friend bought a 51 from a fellow in Iowa.  It was registered in Iowa by engine number, but that engine was no longer in the car.  When he first registered it in NY, they took the number off the Iowa paperwork without a blink.  He then took a pencil rubbing off his serial number, got a written statement from his neighbor who is a Syracuse City police officer, went to the DMV, and changed the engine number to the serial number, then he put in a third engine with a different number.  Another friend has a p15 also registered by serial number.  The NY DMV offices in many areas are a part of the county clerk's office, rather than the State.  It seems to boil down here to what ever number the originating dealer put on their plate applications when the car was first sold. Once titles were mandated, they all went with the federal vin tag number.  Why any jurisdiction would use a replaceable part number as the official vehicle identifier is beyond me, especially with how common engine swaps during the era our cars and trucks were in their prime. I suppose for curiosity sake I could check the frame number against the engine number of one that was in the car when I bought it but today that seems like too much work...

Edited September 12, 2019 by greg g

[Furylee2]

I live in Nebraska, and my 41 is titled be the engine number.

[JerseyHarold]

I've had several P23's,  all from New York, that were registered with the motor number.   I did the 'pencil tracing' thing with the DMV and switched them all over to the Vehicle Number on the doorpost.  Very easy process in NY.

[Dan Hiebert]

As Greg noted, before the imposition of the VIN, each State did its own thing, that's the short version.  The individual States were in conflict (read: opinionated) over which component of the car actually constituted the car; was it the engine, the frame, the body, etc.?  Once the VIN requirement was established, that was settled.  We've had our D24 registered in five States - Texas, New Mexico, Michigan, New York, and now Maine.  We didn't register it as an antique in New York, because it was cheaper to register it as a "regular" car, but the DMV clerk still asked about the number because it "didn't conform to VIN standards" - which prompted a call to the DMV office supervisor, who had to override the input flag, which in turn prompted a query as to whether it was the engine or serial number.  They didn't have an issue with it, just a procedural thing.  All of them just carried forward the number on the last State's title, but there were provisions to change it to the engine number if we wanted to, but that was up to us, not the State. 

[Eneto-55]

9 hours ago, Furylee2 said:

I live in Nebraska, and my 41 is titled be the engine number.

Thanks much!  Nebraska is the one I really needed to know.  I will see if my brother can make out the frame number, and do another lost title search through the state of Nebraska. 

I didn't say so, but I also bought my 46 w/o a title.  (The Nebraska car I have is a 49 P15.)  We first submitted a request with the license tag number and the A Pillar ID tag number, and the response was just that the license tag that was on the car when I got it did not belong to that vehicle.  (In Oklahoma, the license plate belongs to the vehicle, not the vehicle owner.)   We then resubmitted the lost title search request w/o a license plate number, and they found the title.  The car was apparently originally sold in Oklahoma, and spent it's whole life there, because the title includes the original date of sale.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Eneto-55

[Eneto-55]

Another question:  Other than the 'P15' at the beginning, is the number on the frame also 8 digits, like the one on the A Pillar?

[BobT-47P15]

No.   Best I can tell.....there are six digits after the "P15-"

 

Looks like my Body Number on the firewall has 7 digits.

[Eneto-55]

1 hour ago, BobT-47P15 said:

No.   Best I can tell.....there are six digits after the "P15-"

 

Looks like my Body Number on the firewall has 7 digits.

I should check my body number (firewall).  (Still have it off, not with the car right now.)  The A Pillar is 8 digits.

 

Is there any similarity between the three numbers, such as same sequence for part of the number?

Edited September 14, 2019 by Eneto-55

[greg g]

Engine number was stamped as it was assembled, the engine number on the frame was after the engine was installed, body number was assigned by Briggs when it was stamped.  The serial number (on the door post) was assigned by Chrysler when the car was ready to leave the assembly line. So these guys who say their early Mopar is a numbers matching car is kinda funny. Matching what???

[Merle Coggins]

19 minutes ago, greg g said:

Matching what???

 

Matching the assembly line card?

[greg g]

How many have one???  There is a fellow here with a nice 51 Coronet convertible.  Says he bought it from California, all original except for paint, numbers matching.  Engine number starts with a T. It matches his registration document.

[Eneto-55]

3 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

Matching the assembly line card?

This is the way I would understand it, although I don't know for sure.  That, and the engine matching the frame number.

[TomP]

On 9/16/2019 at 4:33 PM, greg g said:

How many have one???  There is a fellow here with a nice 51 Coronet convertible.  Says he bought it from California, all original except for paint, numbers matching.  Engine number starts with a T. It matches his registration document.

 

 Hi Greg, my understanding of engine # starting T were all assigned to Dodge Trucks, The engine I am putting in my 41 Ply 1/2 ton pickup starts T120* which from the table below is a 1948/49. On the subject of Build Cards I have one for each of my 33 PD and 34 PE easily obtainable from Chrysler Historical at no charge, records from LA plant are patchy and I think Windsor records went up in smoke.

 

 

[TodFitch]

2 hours ago, TomP said:

. . . On the subject of Build Cards I have one for each of my 33 PD and . . .

 

 

It seems that no one has records of what paint and upholstery codes mean for Plymouth prior to 1934, so a side project of mine is to try to reconstruct them.

 

Can you tell what the original body color was on your rumble seat coupe? My guess is that it was gray from the 5xx series number (consistent from 1934 through 1936 at least). But I have another report of a RS Coupe with a paint code of 530. Unfortunately there is only one gray listed in my references for the PD RS Coupe so it can't be both 530 and 545.

 

And I haven't seen a 401 code for interior before. Your card also says "LEATH" so I am wondering if that is leather (I think mohair was 260 and broadcloth was 301).

[BobT-47P15]

 I cleaned on the frame numbers again after not looking at them for a few years.  Marked the area which is about 6 inches before the gas tank filler neck.  

Still have to look at them closely with a flashlight to make sure what those digits are....but it works.   They do not match my current engine number as it came from a 1957 Plymouth.

 

[TomP]

52 minutes ago, TodFitch said:

 

It seems that no one has records of what paint and upholstery codes mean for Plymouth prior to 1934, so a side project of mine is to try to reconstruct them.

 

Can you tell what the original body color was on your rumble seat coupe? My guess is that it was gray from the 5xx series number (consistent from 1934 through 1936 at least). But I have another report of a RS Coupe with a paint code of 530. Unfortunately there is only one gray listed in my references for the PD RS Coupe so it can't be both 530 and 545.

 

And I haven't seen a 401 code for interior before. Your card also says "LEATH" so I am wondering if that is leather (I think mohair was 260 and broadcloth was 301).

 

Hi Tod, I have an old thread on AACA which we have exchanged post, JB has records on ownership since the 80's when it was in South Africa. Imported to UK in 2002, I purchased it in 2012 regarding colour it has several coats of paint to the point that the definition of the bead lines have been lost, the shades are old english white with mid brown bead work and fenders, chrome to Shell, Buckets and Horns. There were not give away chalk markings of codes under the interior. the seats are upholstered in Tan vinyl which I don't believe to be original. This car was exported to Johannesburg Sept 33 if that helps.

Edited October 19, 2019 by TomP

[TomP]

32 minutes ago, BobT-47P15 said:

 I cleaned on the frame numbers again after not looking at them for a few years.  Marked the area which is about 6 inches before the gas tank filler neck.  

Still have to look at them closely with a flashlight to make sure what those digits are....but it works.   They do not match my current engine number as it came from a 1957 Plymouth.

 

Hi Bob, apologize for hijacking your thread. My early Plymouth's both have the engine numbers stamped on the frame with a prefix of the model ie PD or PE and a suffix of the model yr 33 or 34. for Build Cards you must have the serial # from the A pillar tag, that is the way Chrysler has filed the microfiche plates. As you say engines get changed out and at times it becomes impossible to decipher.

[fede]

I didn't know about the number in the frame! Now I want to know if it matches the engine... as far as I know the block is original.

[Sam Buchanan]

It took persistent wire-brushing followed by acetone to remove some paint but was finally able to make out a faint number on the frame that matches the engine number. That is a bit of history I was happy to find to go along with the rebuild tag from 1987 on the engine block. Probably doesn't mean much but if anyone asks if I have a matching-number car I can answer "Yes".