stucked oil ring in T214

[Spencer1]

Hi there

Hope somebody can help me.

I am still struggling with high oil consumption on my 43 Dodge WC  truck.

The engine needs a quart on 300 km but:

• without leakages.
• I cant detect blue smoke while driving. Only with high Rpm something is visble
• Opening the oil filler cap during Idle, no smoke is visible, neither high pressure.
• All spark plugs are showing black carbon like black powder
• No loss of power is detectable
• History of the engine is unknown
• Car has done 1000 km after restoration and then been left alone for 10 years without moving in a dry garage because the owner had some health troubles and couldnt drive anymore

So, before disassembling the engine, I assume that the oil rings are stucked due to the 10 years stillstand.

 

Anybody here who has some experience with stucked oil rings, using Marvel Mistery oil or something like this?

Cheers, Mike

[squirebill]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of stuck rings based on your findings.  Stuck rings would result in oil soaked spark plugs, blue smoke in the exhaust, lack of power.  What is the oil pressure when idling and higher RPM ?  Does your coolant look milky at all?  Have you done a compression test? Regards

[Plymouthy Adams]

I would look first at the natural breathing of the engine itself. two major areas come into play.   One is the fill tube and the vented breather cap..if you have the open sided breather it must be pointed at the firewall to prevent too much air forced into the engine by the fan....second is looking at the scavenger pipe and ensure the position of this tube is correct so to create a venturi effect.   This allows vapors in the engine to be removed in such a way NOT to remove small atomized particle of oil along with the vapor....

Edited July 11, 2019 by Plymouthy Adams

[Spencer1]

Thanks for your posts!

I checked and cleaned already the crankcase ventilation. The breather is 360 Degree open. I closed the side towards the ventilator with tape. But no changes. The engine consumes a lot of oil. While removing the spark plugs you can see that the combustion chamber is full of non-solid sblack oot. Also the spark plug.

So the only way I am loosing oil is by burning it.

If it is not a mistake in the crankcase ventilation, the only remaining cause must be the oil  rings. Maybe they are stucked because the car wasnt moved during 10 years, having still the old engine oil inside.

But before pulling out the pistons, I would like to know if somebody has experience with chemical removal of carbon around the piston rings, especially the oil ring which is the lowest and most difficult to access with any liquid or spray.

I dont believe in snake oils but one of my colleagues (Ford engine engineer) says that Marvel Mystery Oil may dissolve that carbon if you mix it into the engine oil.

The problem is that there are a lot of tutorial videos in the internet about that stuff, but I dont know if you can trust them because they have a clear commercial background.

Therefore again my question: Anybody who has experience with snake oils for carbon removal?

Thanks a lot in advance

Edited July 19, 2019 by Spencer1
compression ring was wrong, I mean the oil ring

[Plymouthy Adams]

RISLONE is the only additive I recommend to put in oil.....

[Spencer1]

Thanks,

but Rislone increases the oil viskosity. My problem is different. My compression rings seem to be ok but the  oil rings cant move and are stucked because old oil and carbon is closing the small pistons drenage bores. So I have to get this carbon or old oil dissolved to get this rings moving and sealing again

[kencombs]

8 hours ago, Spencer1 said:

Thanks,

but Rislone increases the oil viskosity. My problem is different. My compression rings seem to be ok but the  oil rings cant move and are stucked because old oil and carbon is closing the small pistons drenage bores. So I have to get this carbon or old oil dissolved to get this rings moving and sealing again

Have you verified the red statement with a compression check?  If so and it's OK, read on.

 

Rislone is a very thin oil additive.  Not at all like the STPs of the world.  Uncle of mine used to sell it, wholesale supplier.  One of the demos was using it to lube a polished angled plate.  Let a steel disk slide down and compare to stp, oil, stp/oil mix, Rislone/oil mix.  Much 'slicker' than oil.  I'd add a quart to the oil, pour a couple of ounces into each spark plug hole of a warm engine.  Let it sit without the plugs for a couple of days.  Crank it over to clear any that may be on top of the pistons, put in the plugs and drive it!  Change oil soon to your favorite stuff.  Since your breaking carbon loose, hopefully,  you will need to change it often to prevent bearing damage.

Or, do the same with ATF, my favorite penetrating fluid.

 

Can't hurt, may help.

Edited July 19, 2019 by kencombs

[Spencer1]

Thanks a lot

I heard already a lot of adding ATF or brakefluid.

I think that will be a chance before removing the pistons.

Cheers

[Plymouthy Adams]

Rislone, a product that has been scientifically created to do the very task you are wishing to accoumplish is not the right product and yet brake fluid is your answer....for someone not believing in snake oil it seems this is your very quest....trust me, if this stuff worked as you wish it to, the brake fluid guys would be touting this miracle property and totally increase sales volume.....

[Veemoney]

Not sure what the current temperatures you are using the truck in but Germany can get pretty warm especially this year.

On 6/30/2019 at 12:59 PM, Spencer1 said:

The engine needs a quart on 300 km but:

• without leakages.
• I cant detect blue smoke while driving. Only with high Rpm something is visble
• Opening the oil filler cap during Idle, no smoke is visible, neither high pressure.
• All spark plugs are showing black carbon like black powder
• No loss of power is detectable
• History of the engine is unknown
• Car has done 1000 km after restoration and then been left alone for 10 years without moving in a dry garage because the owner had some health troubles and couldnt drive anymore

What oil are you running? If you are trying to run a straight 20w or a synthetic oil  that may be your problem. I would use a multi-grade if your not already and consider the temperature that you are using the truck in. A 10-30W or 10-40W may be more appropriate and stay away from synthetics for now till the problem is resolved if you are using them.

 

Second question Since you have no history on the motor other than it was run a bit over 600 miles after a restoration do you know the motor was rebuilt as part of the restoration? A compression check  test  and vacuum test will tell you a lot about the motor to confirm issues before pulling it apart.

 

As far as oil additives go. MMO, Rislone, will work as mentioned by others. Kerosene is even mentioned in an old manual I have for thinning the oil in winter.(I bet that would smoke some). 

[Spencer1]

Thanks all

I am using a oldtimer 20W50 oil from Liqui Moli with low additives.

Unfortunately I have no idea if the engine was rebuild completely or if they fixed only head and crankshaft bearing. However the oil pump and bearings must be in a very good shape, showing maximum pressure of 50 at normal speed.

The coolant rail in the engine block was replaced by a new one.

The crankcase ventilation is completely cleaned. I tried also to protect the breather against the ventilator, but with no results. There is no pressure coming from the ventilator.

Last weekend I tried an anticarbon treatment with verylube to remove the soot from combustion chamber and rings, but no results. Even at starting the engine after one night having the anticarbon inside there was absoltuely no smoke, nothing. I thought my neighbors would kill me but no trace of the anticarbon. So I assume it has passed by the rings and disappeared in the engine oil. After running 30 miles, Spark plugs are covered again with satin black soot, but not oily at all. Elektrodes are free and normal.

Next weekend I will do a compression test with warm engine.But this doesnt tell me anything about the oil rings.

 

 

 

[Frank Elder]

Coolant rail = water distribution tube.

Ventilator = down draft tube ?

Breather = oil crank case tube breather or air breather ?

[kencombs]

"satin black soot" would normally be the result of a rich mixture, not oil burning. 

 

Probably have a fuel mixture issue as well as, and separate from the oil burning. 

[Spencer1]

Yes, maybe a complex problem. But the car has a normal fuel consumption, comparing to others with the same type. Carburetor is Zenith, clean and without any problem as far as I can see. Maybe I have to clean the air filter to reduce the pressure loss? I havent done this before because I got the car 2000 miles ago..

[Spencer1]

Hi Frank

Coolant rail = water distribution tube.

Ventilator = down draft tube ?

Breather = oil crank case tube breather or air breather ?

Yes, sorry. Thats German English. Ventilator should be "fan"?

My breather is a small filter element fitted to the the tube to the crankcase where you are adding engine oil

[Jeff Balazs]

I suggest you try adding 4oz to 6oz of Marvel Mystery Oil to each tank of gas. See if that doesn't make a difference after you have run 2 or 3 tanks of fuel through it. This stuff really works. And it is not expensive.

Jeff

[Plymouthy Adams]

Rislone in the oil is faster and designed for that.....but then I beat the proverbial dead horse...

[Jeff Balazs]

15 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

Rislone in the oil is faster and designed for that.....but then I beat the proverbial dead horse...

Tim; You may be right. I am looking at it from another perspective.......fuel related if you will. Not sure what their fuel formulations are like over there but here the fuel needs treatment in order for these old engines to perform. When I started using MMO in the fuel I noticed several improvements in the way my truck ran. No more sooty plugs......easier starting.....fuel bowl stays clean. I have a few buddies here that have older vehicles that have had the same experience and results.

I know this stuff works. I ran out of it a while back and it wasn't too long before the old truck started acting up. Got some more and the hard starting etc...went away in a couple of days.

Jeff

[Plymouthy Adams]

perhaps a double whammy could be in order....

[Spencer1]

Hi Jeff

A friend of mine, engineer at Ford and having several WW2 US army vehicles and tanks is saying the same. He is absolutely against snake oils. But visiting Brasil he saw that they are using a lot MMO to keep their fuel systems clean. You may know that Brazil is using a high content of Biofuel in their stuff. In Europe we have the same problem because they are mixing the fuel with 5-10% Ethanol. And this causes a lot of problems with the old engines and fuel systems such as tank corrosion, dirty carburetors etc. Especially when they are parked during the winter period. Since he is mixing MMO to his vehicles he has no problems any more. I believe him. There must be solvent in the MMO which helps here.

Regarding my oil consumption problem I will change the 20W50 oil to SAE30. Maybe that during the normal operation the 20W50 is thinner than the SAE 30. I will look for a VT diagram.

Michael

[kencombs]

I know this has been mentioned before, but you really need to do the diagnostics first.  Compression check  at least.  Set timing with vacuum gauge and ideally do a leak down test.  Info from those will help decide the proper steps needed.

[Veemoney]

Spencer,

On 7/23/2019 at 3:52 AM, Spencer1 said:

I am using a oldtimer 20W50 oil from Liqui Moli with low additives.

Unfortunately I have no idea if the engine was rebuild completely or if they fixed only head and crankshaft bearing. However the oil pump and bearings must be in a very good shape, showing maximum pressure of 50 at normal speed. 

After running 30 miles, Spark plugs are covered again with satin black soot, but not oily at all. Elektrodes are free and normal. 

Next weekend I will do a compression test with warm engine.But this doesnt tell me anything about the oil rings.

I run 20W50 in my L-engine as well with no issues. Your oil pressure is good too. I like the double whammy suggestion for the additives as well.

 

I suggested the compression and vacuum tests to confirm the condition of the rings and guides or identify any problem with a specific cylinder.  I agree with Kencombs that dry black soot on the plugs would indicate  to rich fuel mixture. You mentioned blue smoke at higher speeds from the tailpipe. Normally I associate blue with oil, black with rich fuel mixture and white with coolant. 

 

[Spencer1]

I will do the compression test on weekend, warm. After this I will change my oil to SAE 30. Lets see what happens

[Spencer1]

I did the compression test with warm engine and wide open throttle. And a new 6 volt starter which runs really fast. All cylinders between 136 and 153 PSI. Or in SI units: 9,4 to 10,6 bar. The technical Manual wants to see around 100 PSI with a maximum tolerance of 20%. My compression instrument is not calibrated. But all values are looking pretty high and the tolerance is about +/- 5%. Thats absolutely ok for my understanding.

In addition I changed the 20w50  to a SAE30 oil to check the influence of the oil regarding my high consumption.

But what I will never understand is that the manual and everybody tells about a total of 5 qts of engine oil until its full. But my dip stick needs 6 qts to indicate full. I checked the dip stick and its tube with others dodges of the same type and there is no difference. And I dont no nothing about different oil pans. Any way, an overfilling is not the cause of the high consumption because even if the level is at half, it continious consuming too much.

[kencombs]

Compression seems to be on the high side to me.  Wonder what the compression ration might be? 

 

In any case it seems sure that worn compression rings are not the root of your issue.

 

Now you need to make a choice, select one of the recommendations already made, or choose your own brand of 'snake oil' and give it a try, or open it up.