I am just venting...

[James_Douglas]

You know, examples of the phone call I just had are why American Business really do not deserve to survive.

 

As some of you know I have been looking into various options for Automatic Transmissions for my heavy Desoto Suburban. I tried calling one of the larger "custom" transmission houses to discuss their offerings. I got crap on the phone.

 

So, I wrote a real letter to their corporate HQ. Explaining what I was up to and what I needed. What I had asked for was what is the reciprocating weight of one of their transmissions. I did not need an exact weight, just close enough to compare it to the MOPAR fluid drive-M5/M6 transmissions so I can determine if the "mythology" on parasitic loss of the newer transmissions was a fact or not.

 

I got a call and was told that they "could not spare anyone to do the "engineering" that I was asking for. He then told me that build dozens of these each month and that they are so busy they do not have the people or time to do the "engineering I am asking for". I guess it takes an engineer to screw in a light bulb at this place.

 

Of course that was crap. If you see how they assemble these transmissions, with everything on the bench, they could drop each assembly onto a $10 digital scale and write it down as they worked.  If it added as much a 10 minutes to the process I would be suppressed. When I asked him who it takes an engineer to weigh a part...he just repeated the same line.

 

If the reciprocating weight calculations worked out I would buy one of their very expensive transmissions. Of course I would report my efforts here and at other sites as well. That 10 Minutes would provide a better advertising/sales ratio than anything else they are doing.

 

I have done business with folks in Asia and I have to say that requests such as this get attention and done with an eye to good customer relations. They understand advertising/sales ratio.   It is how things used to be in the USA.

 

Yes, I can go and buy a dead trans, take it apart myself and come up with the weight...

 

And of course the popular magazines in this hobby run articles all the time on how this and other companies "work" with us in the hobby. Of course, that is all crap.

 

Like I said, just a rant...

[wayfarer]

I can understand your frustration but....perhaps you are worrying too much much about the details.

IMHO, the M6 package is likely to be alot less efficient than most any of the new trans design. Recall that the 'Big Guys' have a huge R&D

budget every year and if they are not improving on the last design then they are likely getting replaced.  It has been many decades since

my ME class work but I do believe that the fluid coupler of the M6 will not equate to the lock-up torque converters of today. As to recriprocating weight,

I would not consider it the single deciding factor but would look at the efficiency of the complete transmission assembly.

If the M6 was the 'best design' then it would still be here and you would be using it.

[Plymouthy Adams]

finding specs is often hard to come by on an internet search, most books on the model will not even go into that detail....when it comes to custom modification and mix and match....your car is not that heavy....it will weigh in a lot less than the average 1500 series truck that have all the items you will need to do your upgrades including trans, engine, brakes, rear gears, R&P steering and well, just every corner and aspect.....I think your rant is really not relevant as no major corporation is concerned with a one off retrofit.  While I know they should be able to give you weights, go to a local wrecking yard...they have to pull and weight this stuff all the time when selling and shipping...little real time visit I think will put you way farther down the road.

[James_Douglas]

7 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

finding specs is often hard to come by on an internet search, most books on the model will not even go into that detail....when it comes to custom modification and mix and match....your car is not that heavy....it will weigh in a lot less than the average 1500 series truck that have all the items you will need to do your upgrades including trans, engine, brakes, rear gears, R&P steering and well, just every corner and aspect.....I think your rant is really not relevant as no major corporation is concerned with a one off retrofit.  While I know they should be able to give you weights, go to a local wrecking yard...they have to pull and weight this stuff all the time when selling and shipping...little real time visit I think will put you way farther down the road.

I do agree with you to a point...

 

In this case the big company spends a lot on advertising and getting into articles about all the neat cars that their transmission can be retrofitted into. My rant has more to do with the discrepancy between their speech and their behavior.

 

There also has been a popular myth that the "new" automatics robe to much power. Anyone who used a powerglide in drag racing knows this. I wanted to check the actual reciprocating weights for myself to see how close they are...

[Plymouthy Adams]

years ago I read a very interesting white paper on the internet over the parasitic loss of power for operation of the average transmission, if I recall they compared the top tranny of the big three in the paper.  Perhaps a search including parasitic loss will be your factor to locate this data....

[kencombs]

It's my suspicion that the weight of the rotating assembly has not much at all to do with the constant state parasitic losses in an automatic.

The power needed to supply oil under pressure for the clutches is more likely to be an issue.  The looser its' bushings and sealing rings become, the more volume is required.

 

Same with the drag of all the rotating parts in an oil bath.  If you've ever seen a video of the inside of a running engine you know a lot of HP is lost just throwing oil around.  that's the reason for windage trays and dry sump systems.

 

Once the rotation is established, which does use some hp to get it up to speed, not much is needed to maintain the set speed.  Like cruising at 60, versus accelerating to 60.

 

I'll bet somewhere there exists some data on power required to spin a trans, as a lot of companies have test benches for that.  Maybe a contact with an auto maker's power train engineering , would have the info.  I'll bet all of them have tested their own and the completion' products.  

 

Anybody have an industry contact???

 

[dale]

I read a turbp 400 uses 20 HP..

[James_Douglas]

I have read over that data as well and it looks like it is about 20 to 40 HP depending on who you talk with. I can tell you that the oil in a M5/M6 spinning also has oil drag. Since the only way to do that particular comparison is to have an engine with an M5/M6 on it and dyno it and then stick on a modern automatic....

 

I really do not want to spend that much time on it.  What I would like to know it the weights. If the new automatic comes in as I think it will 20% lower than the existing weight, then I think any oil losses would bring it back to close to even. Not to mention the torque multiplication that a fluid coupling does not.

 

What gets my goat is that if someone asked a line assembler to measure the components in rough terms I suspect that he (or she) would think nothing of it and hardly slow down the assembly.  It is the attitude of many American Business people today that if they do not see an immediate profit in doing something when why bother?

 

Long term customer relations be dammed! 

[Adam H P15 D30]

Some numbers I’ve seen before but there also is a lot of variables like engine RPM, vehicle speed, and torque converter used. I seen these same numbers over the years but who knows???

GM
PG 18 hp
TH-350 36 hp
TH-400 44 hp

FORD
C 6 55-60 hp
C 4 28 hp
FMX 25 hp

Chrysler
A904 25 hp
727 45 hp

 

Last time I went through a Chrysler TF A518, I’d say the internal moving parts weighed about 50-60 lbs.  This is a guesstimate done by me carrying the bucket of parts to the washer. 

 

Adam

[Plymouthy Adams]

well, if this is any help to  you, I did weigh a 904 tranny a bit back and recorded the weight with torque converter installed, approx. 50% of oil still in the transmission at 160 lbs....

[HotRodTractor]

Knowing the reciprocating weight of the internal components won't tell you anything in regards to the parasitic loss of power through any particular transmission. There are so many other variables that are far more significant in terms of power loss. Pump design, clutch pack design, amount of pressure needed to maintain lockup, amount of pressure needed to maintain clutch pack engagement, amount of flow rate needed to maintain pressure in lockup, amount of flow rate needed to maintain clutch pack engagement, amount of slippage in a clutch pack, amount of friction in clutch packs not engaged, etc..... the list can go on.

 

I don't have any research papers looked up, but its been my experience that the real loss of power through an automatic comes not from the rotational mass, but from power lost through the internal hydraulics in terms of power needed to flow X gpm at Y psi, and the associated heat loss that comes inherent in such a hydraulic system.

 

I'll also say the idea that older automatics have less power loss than newer ones is a myth and nothing more. Particularly in the last 30 ish years the drive for more efficiency has been front and center in the automotive world. You don't do that by having a transmission that has more parasitic losses than the one produced from the 1950s through the 1970s.

[James_Douglas]

I did find one good report that is 446 pages long that goes into great detail on transmissions and their losses. It was aimed at fuel efficiency, but since most of their work was based on rake mean effective pressure (BMEP), it is a perfect stand in for torque. Interestingly, a number of the new engines are in the 200 HP range so the applicability of this data to our 100 HP engines is possible.

 

The numbers they state for losses of a four-speed automatic with torque converter are:

Losses                 -          % FE
 
Oil Supply                       3.6
Electricity                       0.5
Drag Torque                  3.2
Gearing Efficiency       1.0
Creep (Idle) Torque     1.7
 
Total Losses                10.0

 

So, it looks like the oil supply and the Drag Torque are about the same. Why I want to know the weights are that if they are close to the M5/M6 then the big issue left is the oil supply. Some transmission can be built to help in that area. I also hope that the torque converter will help with that. 

 

One really interesting item in the report is the impact of using clutch plates that have grooving in them and wave springs between then to allow the oil to flow between them when not engaged. That reduced the drag torque a lot in the area of 50%.

 

Since I cannot do much about the fluid-pump losses, all I can do is to try and reduce dreg torque and the actual reciprocating weight.

 

The other thing I have found out is that on dyno checks that the engine fan can rob about 6% oh HP.

 

Since all I will have is 125 HP on a good day and a 5500 pound car, every little bit I can save will add up to the difference in a car that can be driven with pleasure around the USA versus one that will be work to drive around the country.

 

James.

 

[HotRodTractor]

Rotational mass doesn't equate to drag. There is a so much more to the design of the components that has a significant impact on drag. I could take a clutch drum and texture the outside of it for instance, or I could make a wiper area that "peeled" the fluid off the drum. I could make a drum smaller in diameter, yet longer for more clutch packs - both could hold the same torque and weigh similar, but drastically different drag.

 

Perhaps to put it into different terms.... The BMW X5 weighs roughly the same as your Desoto. Using your weight analogy they would have roughly the same aerodynamic drag going down the road. Do you think that is true?

Edited May 11, 2019 by HotRodTractor
used wrong terminology

[MackTheFinger]

And after all that you know you really need a stick shift.. ?

[Plymouthy Adams]

1 hour ago, MackTheFinger said:

And after all that you know you really need a stick shift.. ?

nothing wrong with wanting to be a shiftless "b-tard"  ?   There is a place for each style....I am content with a mixture of each...on that car I would more than not go to automatic, anything over a shift on the tree

 

while factoring in HP and Weight, rotating mass, parasitic loss and such...NEVER DISCOUNT what the industry has learned and applied.....everything is gearing....

[MackTheFinger]

43 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

nothing wrong with wanting to be a shiftless "b-tard"  ?   There is a place for each style....I am content with a mixture of each...on that car I would more than not go to automatic, anything over a shift on the tree

 

while factoring in HP and Weight, rotating mass, parasitic loss and such...NEVER DISCOUNT what the industry has learned and applied.....everything is gearing....

 

True, but it's hard to beat the simplicity of a T-10. I like slushboxes but even 10-15 hp isn't easy to find on any L-head. 

 

I just realized that what's really needed is a CVT!! ?

[Cold Blue]

I agree with MackThe Finger - a CTV would be the answer. I have a 2018 Honda CR-V with a CTV Tranny. It is a sweet running machine.

[Cold Blue]

Just now, Cold Blue said:

I agree with MackThe Finger - a CTV would be the answer. I have a 2018 Honda CR-V with a CTV Tranny. It is a sweet running machine.

Oops - "CVT" not "CTV"....sorry.

[Plymouthy Adams]

28 minutes ago, Cold Blue said:

Oops - "CVT" not "CTV"....sorry.

at least it was not        CCTV

[James_Douglas]

Thanks for the comments on my venting. The thread went down the path of what trans to use and the issues, the real reason for my venting was how American Small Business has forgotten how to take care of its customer base.  Also, how the so-called car media talks up how helpful these small businesses are in their articles but when you call with something odd they will not talk with you.

 

Like I said, doing business in Asia today is like doing business in the USA in 1970. The sad part it is those same 2019 businesses in the USA that bitch about "unfair foreign competition". They are correct, but when one gets treated like I was, then why the hell should I give a dame if they get buried under that unfair foreign competition? They plant the seeds of their own destruction over time.

 

*****

As to the issue of using a stick or automatic. How many of you drive an old car every day and have for 45 years? How many of you have never owned a car built after 1971? I have been driving the Desoto for 18 years in San Francisco Traffic. My sciatic pain is getting worse and the idea of driving the Desoto around the USA in a few years with a clutch is not something I am looking forward to. Hence the want of an Automatic.

*****

I will look to build a tranny that has the lowest rotational mass I can get and one that has the lowest drag from the oil pump to the drain back via the clutches and discs I can find.  It may be a 4 speed or 6 speed computer controlled auto depending on what Wilcap can do adaptor wise and which transmission house I end up working with.

 

*****

I will also look to getting rid of the electric fan and also look to lightening up the real long (two) driveshaft's on the 139.5 inch wheelbase. Basically, anything that robs power.

 

James.

[Ranger]

Glad this thread is back on track. I was starting to get a headache.

[MackTheFinger]

I apologize if I caused anyone a headache or took the thread "off track".  Seemed to me it started out with a wheel in the ditch.?

 

 

[Sam Buchanan]

11 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

Thanks for the comments on my venting. The thread went down the path of what trans to use and the issues, the real reason for my venting was how American Small Business has forgotten how to take care of its customer base.  Also, how the so-called car media talks up how helpful these small businesses are in their articles but when you call with something odd they will not talk with you.

 

I don't care to get mired in this discussion (much rather discuss old cars....) but as a retired small business man I wish to offer a couple of comments.

 

One, I think James is painting with a very broad brush. Yes, he is frustrated due to not receiving the engineering input he desired, but I think a major factor is his request for "something odd". By definition, a small business must be very focused on their specialty in order to survive. In my previous small business life I would have been very reluctant to engage with a customer who requested something totally out of my normal work flow. This didn't mean I didn't have an interest in helping, I just couldn't sacrifice my customary attention to regular customers with my limited resources in order to run down a rabbit trail that wasn't in my wheelhouse.

 

Two, there are tremendously dedicated small businesses in many countries, especially the USA, providing fantastic service. That is how they survive! To insinuate poor service is somehow related to nationality is a train of thought I find hard to follow. I also suspect there may be a generational component to Jame's disenchantment with American small businesses.  

 

There, James is probably hacked off at me now.....and I've elaborated all I intend to do. Now...back to our regular programming. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[wayfarer]

Gotta agree with Sam.

Although long retired I still keep the parts/engine business going because I can, not because I need to put beans on the table and

I also like to help folks who are in need of what I may provide. Ask a question and I'll try to help but if the 'need' is outside of my usual line 

of endeavour then it may not get treated as well as the enquirer may desire. As they say, time is money and as we get older time is golden......

 

As has been said, if Mr Douglas is crazy concerned about the L6 power production then perhaps a different direction should be considered 

than just swapping the trans.

[Frank Elder]

Put a nice V8/OD of your choice in it and be done with it......if you hadn't noticed James, the years we have left tend to go by quickly as we age.....