Wandering timing

[Beto0311]

Has anyone ever ran into any issues with their HEI distributor? I just walked into an issue on my motor.  I bumped the #1 cylinder to tdc, locked distributor, wired up the firing order, & turned it on..... motor went into high idle. 900rmp....Checked the timing, using my timing gun, it was at 15* btc.. 3 times i turned it off and adjusted the timing again.  3 times it went to 15* btc.. new motor, chain is not loose. I havent even broke it in correctly yet because of this issue... is my hei distributor faulty? Thanks in advance for the advice and help.  

[P15-D24]

Have a centrifigal and/or vacuum advance?

[Beto0311]

Yeah vacuum advanced.... but i didn't have it hooked up while i was timing it 

[Frank Elder]

If it is a Langdon HEI, Tom Langdon would be better suited to answer your questions.....I've seen less than 10 people say they have one on this forum so it doesn't get discussed much on here. Do other brands exist or is it homemade ?

[kencombs]

sounds like the centrifugal advance is ramping up too soon.  Try turning the idle down to 5-600 and see if it retards. 

[Beto0311]

I tried the retarded and it looses power, i also adjuted the carburetors and it dies.....Yes sir its a  Langdon hei, i dont think theres other brands.. 

[kencombs]

If it won't idle, I'd be looking for a carb issue.  It should be down in the 5-600 range. Is this a new install and never worked right or what?

As a last resort you could open it up and wire the advance full retarded to check.  But If it's new, I'd call the supplier.  But only after assuring the fuel system is not the source of the high idle.

 

 

 

 

there is at least one other HEI, or at least electronic,  a modifies slant 6 package, or a stock dist converted with one of several kits and using a GM control module.

[Beto0311]

Everything is new.. just finished assembling the motor.. carbs are carters bb, new hei.  Carbs fine.. its timing.. i just dialed it to 0*, turned off the engine to lock the distributor.  Turned back on, and it starts with a "nice" iddle than it just goes up to 15 to 20* btc again... 

[kencombs]

49 minutes ago, Beto0311 said:

Everything is new.. just finished assembling the motor.. carbs are carters bb, new hei.  Carbs fine.. its timing.. i just dialed it to 0*, turned off the engine to lock the distributor.  Turned back on, and it starts with a "nice" iddle than it just goes up to 15 to 20* btc again... 

This assumes the presence of a centrifugal advance:

Does the idle increase when the advance comes into play?  Or does the idle cause the advance?  Chicken and eqq question.  Hard to tell without disabling the centrifugal advance.  I'm not familiar with the Langdon kit, can you see the advancd mechanism from the top? enough to wire it in place?

[greg g]

What source are you using for the vacuum advance?  Idle should be 400 to 500. 900 is even high for cold high idle step up cam on the carb.  On mine the linkage wasn't releasing from the step up cam on the linkage.

[desoto1939]

what is the conditionof the vibration dampener the rubber hosuing could be loose and causing the advance does the unit wobble or canyou see anything when it is running.  Just a thought.

 

here is the link:    www.damperdoctor.com

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Edited December 25, 2018 by desoto1939

[Beto0311]

2 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

what is the conditionof the vibration dampener the rubber hosuing could be loose and causing the advance does the unit wobble or canyou see anything when it is running.  Just a thought.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Holy ****!!! Its vibrating !! How does that effect the timing exactly?!?! Im in loss of thoughts/words.... WHY? Or how???... i dont know or have a clue about how its related.. 

[desoto1939]

The rubber housing has dried out and now the unit is loose. You can contact a company know as the dampener doctor and your unit and be rebuilt or you could look for one on ebay.  The dodge used part number 1319425 for 1951-52 and this is the vibration dampener and pully as one complete unit.

 

 

her is the link:  www.damperdoctor.com

 

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

Edited December 25, 2018 by desoto1939

[Beto0311]

1 minute ago, desoto1939 said:

The rubber housing has dried out and now the unit is loose. You can contact a company know as the dampener doctor and your unit and be rebuilt or you could look for one on ebay.  The dodge used part number 1319425 for 1951-52 and this is the vibration dampener and pully as one complete unit.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

How does it relate to the timing? How it throwing it off? How is it linked to the distributor? I want to understand how it works 

[Beto0311]

Thanks for the knowledge though i appreciate it, but it bugs me to not understand how it works.. 

[desoto1939]

The dampener has the timing marking on the flat side of the unit so you might this you are setting the timing at say 2 degrees before top dead center but when the unit is  spinning with a load on the unit might be just loose enough to either give you an incorrect reading so the can is not being set at the correct timing and then it affects other issues.  I am not a mechanic but it plays into the timing of the car

 

Rich HArtung.

[desoto1939]

Call me onmy cellphone 484-431-8157  live near Philadelphia pa.

 

rich hartung

[Plymouthy Adams]

3 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

The dampener has the timing marking on the flat side of the unit so you might this you are setting the timing at say 2 degrees before top dead center but when the unit is  spinning with a load on the unit might be just loose enough to either give you an incorrect reading so the can is not being set at the correct timing and then it affects other issues.  I am not a mechanic but it plays into the timing of the car

 

Rich HArtung.

 

if the rubber is loose the outer portion with the timing marks can slip on the hub...it will not/cannot change the timing of the cam in any manner as the hub is keyed to the crank...if the outer portion slips it will only indicate an error that IS NOT a real error...

[Beto0311]

So i finally got a  new dissy... you see the shaft gap from the one that was giving me problems to the new one, with no gap/play...( give me a few while i figure out how to bypass the 3mb picture sizing )

[Beto0311]

[Beto0311]

On 12/25/2018 at 11:25 AM, Plymouthy Adams said:

 

if the rubber is loose the outer portion with the timing marks can slip on the hub...it will not/cannot change the timing of the cam in any manner as the hub is keyed to the crank...if the outer portion slips it will only indicate an error that IS NOT a real error...

Hey boss,  so my dampener is NOT a one piece with a pulley/shieve attached to it. It actually has 2 pieces.  The dampener is one and the belt pulley is the other... pulley is in between block and dampener... is that how some D42 body style came? Will that cause any harm? 

[Plymouthy Adams]

my post was more a correction to the other persons misconception of principle...you did state however that the pulley was vibrating....as you have this in your possession, you will need to verify the integrity of the balancer not only physically but also by doing a mechanical TDC using the access hole at #6 and compare this to the actual TDC indicated by your pointer to the outer rings timing marks...DO NOT do a quick TDC buy using a dowel or other indicating device...you need to use a degree wheel and piston stop when checking external indicators...TDC is just way to flat of a movement at TDC or BDC to find the absolute by eyeball...

[Beto0311]

4 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

my post was more a correction to the other persons misconception of principle...you did state however that the pulley was vibrating....as you have this in your possession, you will need to verify the integrity of the balancer not only physically but also by doing a mechanical TDC using the access hole at #6 and compare this to the actual TDC indicated by your pointer to the outer rings timing marks...DO NOT do a quick TDC buy using a dowel or other indicating device...you need to use a degree wheel and piston stop when checking external indicators...TDC is just way to flat of a movement at TDC or BDC to find the absolute by eyeball...

Yes, i went back to the "tech tips" and starting reading, i found one of your responses, stating ☝? just that... using the access hole by #6. Im waiting for summit delivery on a degree wheel(hope you approve of it) their tech support said it would work.... 

[Plymouthy Adams]

the degree wheel is pretty much universal as it is just a disc marked in degrees 0-360, not all mounting features can be taken into account and you may have to improvise attachment to the flathead crank......if you have never used a degree wheel...do read up on how to find TDC on an engine....you will also have to devise a piston stop for insertion in access hole.....this has to be robust enough to stop rotation and not move when piston makes contact and you must me careful not to force any movement beyond the initial contact with the piston stop...remember #6 access was built in for quick check, a stop must be built to get it dead on...read up on the procedure, do not get in a hurry, remember a piston stop needs to contact piston PRIOR to TDC and you will read the wheel in each direction of rotation as you will split the difference for zero as you cannot read the absolute TDC using a moving rod as it is just to flat of movement at TDC/BDC....YOU MUST ALSO NOT FORGET to remove the piston stop and you must disable the starter so no accidental rotation will occur punching a hole in the piston....remember what you are doing....do not get in a hurry....hang a tag on the disconnected starter wire tell you to REMOVE PISTON STOP  just in case you did not fully complete the location of TDC procedure...….this procedure will also allow you to locate/adjust your pointer dead on to "0" indicated on the outer pulley GIVEN your pulley integrity has not been compromised....again...outer pulley being properly secured via the rubber to the hub and proper location of TDC stationary pointer is what we are out to prove...this process should have been done on initial build of the engine and before the head went on....

Edited January 9, 2019 by Plymouthy Adams