rear axle swap

[plym69]

I am new to this forum and hoping someone can steer me in the right direction. I am restoring a 1952 Plymouth belvedere and need to replace the rear axle. Is there  a newer axle that will fit without too many modifications and have the same ratio of 3.74 ?  Thanks  Ken

[Dodgeb4ya]

Whats wrong with your original axle... they are normally very reliable..

I have the same car and axle.... only a 4.3 with OD and never a problem.

[plym69]

Thanks for your reply. The car keeps chewing up the clutch. I have put three new clutches on in the last two years - works for a while then starts shaking in first gear and con tinues to get worse. A mechanic inspected the car and said it was in the rear axle.

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, plym69 said:

Thanks for your reply. The car keeps chewing up the clutch. I have put three new clutches on in the last two years - works for a while then starts shaking in first gear and con tinues to get worse. A mechanic inspected the car and said it was in the rear axle.

I may be wrong,but I think you need a new mechanic more than you need a new differential.

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

I may be wrong,but I think you need a new mechanic more than you need a new differential.

 

I agree.  I can't think of any rear end problem that would eat clutches. 

OP, tell us more about the clutch issue and maybe someone can help.  Has hte flywheel been surfaced, pressure plate new or rebuilt etc.

[plym69]

Thanks for responding Ken.  When I bought the car the clutch was replaced by a restoration shop and it shuddered a bit in first gear. The mechanic said it just needed to wear in. It continued to get worse and the shop replaced it saying it was poor quality Chinese stuff. The new clutch was not much better and as time went by it continued to get worse shaking badly . The shop said that it must be the engine mounts and they were replaced. No improvement.  The shop said it had to be the  rear axle and they sent me to a transmission shop. There I was told that the rear end was okay -it was the clutch. Upon taking the clutch apart it was badly worn - this after only a couple hundred miles. Another clutch was installed - ordered from Kanters.  The new clutch still shuddered slightly in first gear.  At this point I took the car to a highly rated Pro auto repair shop who said that the clutch and flywheel needed to be balanced -which they did. Well it was no better. I also own a 1950 Plymouth and the clutch operation is smooth as "butter."  I'm baffled.  If I continue to drive the car  it tends to get worse.  Any ideas?   Thanks Ken Florentine

[Plymouthy Adams]

I would believe a flywheel run out test is in order.  If the flywheel was ground at the time of the repair it could have been done wrong.  If not ground and instead just turned, it will not remove the hard spots.   A properly done job would never shudder from first application.   

[knuckleharley]

9 hours ago, plym69 said:

Thanks for responding Ken.  When I bought the car the clutch was replaced by a restoration shop and it shuddered a bit in first gear. The mechanic said it just needed to wear in. It continued to get worse and the shop replaced it saying it was poor quality Chinese stuff. The new clutch was not much better and as time went by it continued to get worse shaking badly . The shop said that it must be the engine mounts and they were replaced. No improvement.  The shop said it had to be the  rear axle and they sent me to a transmission shop. There I was told that the rear end was okay -it was the clutch. Upon taking the clutch apart it was badly worn - this after only a couple hundred miles. Another clutch was installed - ordered from Kanters.  The new clutch still shuddered slightly in first gear.  At this point I took the car to a highly rated Pro auto repair shop who said that the clutch and flywheel needed to be balanced -which they did. Well it was no better. I also own a 1950 Plymouth and the clutch operation is smooth as "butter."  I'm baffled.  If I continue to drive the car  it tends to get worse.  Any ideas?   Thanks Ken Florentine

You need to get your flywheel resurfaced by a specialist shop.

 

You need to get it checked for runout with a dial indicator after it is installed.

 

The bad news is at this point you will also need a new clutch.

 

Another thing you need to do is take your transmission to a transmission shop,preferably one that is NOT a chain shop,and have them check the input shaft on your transmission to see if it is bent. I have never seen or heard of one being bent before,but I supposed it could happen,and at this point you want to check everything and have the damn thing fixed and be done with it.

 

Come to think of it,as long as you are going this far,have the flange on the rear of the crankshaft checked for trueness. Once again,I have never  heard of one not being true unless the crank was bent and beating out bearings,but check it while everything is apart so you can eliminate that as the source of the problem.

 

Try to avoid the chain stores because they tend to just be parts replacers for modern cars. What you need is someone that understands the problem. Maybe a race shop or a big truck shop if you can't find a independent shop with a good rep?

 

BTW,I forgot to mention you should also have the face of your pressure plate checked for flatness. If it is even slightly warped,it needs to either be ground flat or replaced.

Edited September 11, 2018 by knuckleharley

[JerseyHarold]

Are the flywheel-to-crankshaft mounting bolts properly torqued?  If they gradually loosen-up that would cause shuddering.

 

Also, the '52 Plymouth used an Auburn clutch with a 'lift spring' instead of the Borg & Beck clutch with an over-center return spring  used through '51.  That may also be a factor.

[wayfarer]

...all of the above.....

[Plymouthy Adams]

10 minutes ago, wayfarer said:

...all of the above.....

 

at this time and after the long period of time and mileage accumulated....yes....check all items related to the correct position and runout on the components....and do not rule out that just because you replaced mounts and rear shackle bushings that they may not need it again due to the abuse they have seen.  When you do not know what is wrong....PROVE what is right....for an FYI in case you do not have the book at home...flywheel facial runout should not exceed .005   should not have nicks, cracking, blue hotspots...should not be turned and cut with carbide but ground instead...carbide will ride over most hot spots and still leave it HIGH...

 

most folks here can help you with specs and torque values if needed.  Take your time and ensure it is right this time around.....you spending way too much money on poor quality workmanship and excuses that the parts are offshore junk.

 

[Oldguy48]

Is it possible that the problem could be caused by a worn out pilot bushing??

[Don Coatney]

15 minutes ago, Oldguy48 said:

Is it possible that the problem could be caused by a worn out pilot bushing??

 

Or is it possible that someone greased the oilite pilot bushing causing it to gaul? The oilite bushing should be soaked in oil and not greased. Another possibility is the throw out bearing may have a UHMW (ultra high molecular weight) bushing as opposed to a normal bearing. I once installed such throw out bearing and I had severe clutch chatter right out of the box. 

 

One thing is for certain. The inspecting mechanic needs to be inspected. I have had differential failure but such a failure has never caused clutch chatter.

[DJ194950]

Yes to all suggestions above plus while tranny is out I suggest making sure the bell housing is center to the crank and flywheel when installed.

 

Details are most likely in your repair manual , it is in mine. Also how to center the bell if it is off center.

 

Maybe Don Coatney will post up his pictures on his doing this from giant catalog of pictures??

 

DJ

[kencombs]

I'm no expert, but my money would be on a pressure plate that was never adjusted correctly, finger heights uneven and/or a defective flywheel surface.  Have the flywheel ground, don't even look   If possible have the clutch disk and pressure plate serviced by a shop that does the rebuild in house.  Much more likely to get a well built set than from any parts house.  Their sources are not as experienced.   Lastly, make sure that when the new clutch/pressure plate/T/O bearing are installed that the free play is correctly set.  Many new sets have been ruined when a new T/O bearing was left touching the fingers.  ruins bearing in short order and if really tight can cause clutch slippage/heat all kinds of bad things.

Edited September 11, 2018 by kencombs

[Plymouthy Adams]

1 minute ago, kencombs said:

I'm no expert, but my money would be on a pressure plate that was never adjusted correctly, finger heights uneven and/or a defective flywheel surface.  Have the flywheel ground, don't even look  Lastly, make sure that when the new clutch/pressure plate/T/O bearing are installed that the free play is correctly set.  Many new sets have been ruined when a new T/O bearing was left touching the fingers.  ruins bearing in short order and if really tight can cause clutch slippage/heat all kinds of bad things.

three out of three.....but then I AM assuming new cover with new disc each application...anything else is pure false economy

[Don Coatney]

32 minutes ago, DJ194950 said:

Yes to all suggestions above plus while tranny is out I suggest making sure the bell housing is center to the crank and flywheel when installed.

 

Details are most likely in your repair manual , it is in mine. Also how to center the bell if it is off center.

 

Maybe Don Coatney will post up his pictures on his doing this from giant catalog of pictures??

 

DJ

 

Be careful what you ask for as you may get it?

 

 

[sser2]

I suspect new production friction disks. All these disks come from the same Chinese factory, no matter who is selling them. Everything points to it - disc warped from the start, shudder and wear rapidly progress, and seemingly no problems elsewhere. I would try a NOS disc, or old one re-lined with NOS friction pads. Or, even better, whole NOS clutch assembly.

 

Of course flywheel, crank pilot bushing, levers, and alignment must be parts of clutch job, as of shop manual.

[plym69]

Thanks everyone!  All of your suggestions are worth exploration.  I live in the Endless Mtns. region of Pa. The closest place for repairs is Williamsport which is 40 miles away.Not sure if I could find a shop that could do all of the tests in one location. I really would like to restore this vehicle so that it is a reliable driver. According to The Plymouth Owners Club there are less than 12 of this model still on the road . It shows well and if you would a search engine  for 1952 Plymouth Belvedere you will see this vehicle - it is blue and white and somewhere along the way a previous owner modified the gas fill by adding a door.  Might look good but it is not original. Ken Florentine 

[Dodgeb4ya]

You own a really nice P23 1952  hardtop?

Looks to be stock colors.... Belmont Blue Poly lower and Sterling White upper.

I like it of course... same as mine.

This must be your car....

[dale]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 2:44 PM, plym69 said:

I am new to this forum and hoping someone can steer me in the right direction. I am restoring a 1952 Plymouth belvedere and need to replace the rear axle. Is there  a newer axle that will fit without too many modifications and have the same ratio of 3.74 ?  Thanks  Ken

Could be you have the clutch in backward.  They go in opposite of the way you would invision them.  They might work some. I had a 52 chevy once as a kid and put the clutch in backward.  It worked but slowly ground down the springs.  Check out the pilot shaft on the transmission and the throwout bearing adjustment.

[plym69]

Hi Dodgeb4ya,  Yes That is my Belvedere. According to some of the literature that came with it there have been multiple owners over the years. It shows well but I wish I could get to the bottom of this "clutch" problem. Years ago I did most of the work on our vehicles but now at age 83 I find that I do not have the time, energy or expertise to take on large projects  and I seem to have exhausted the nearby automotive experts.  Ken Florentine

[JerseyHarold]

This car was for sale in Connecticut several years ago.  The gas tank door is a unique modification.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The pressure plate height being correct and parallel to the flywheel is critical.

The disc should be spun on the input shaft to be sure it has no wobble at all.

Weak rear springs causing rear axle wrap up can cause chatter too.

No hot spots in the machined flywheel. 

If it was me I'd search for a NOS Borg and Beck 9-1/4" or 10" pressure plate and clutch disc..... clean original new old stock parts (NOS)

and... the disc NOS with asbestos factory lining.... not a relined disc with modern lining material... look on ebay

[plym69]

Thanks Dodgeb4ya,  I really need to follow through on these suggestions. Your point on the rear springs might be something to look into and two other ideas occur to me. One might be the universal the other could be a crack in the frame. I notice even with the new engine mounts the car vibrates when I race the engine in neutral. Ken F.