Starter removal

[John Reddie]

17 hours ago, Reg Evans said:

I call all my Chinese made tools...."Snap Off" Brand

Good one Reg.

[rb1949]

Take a picture of this ornery contraption. Is it out yet?

[51Meadowbrook]

I had to take the starter out of my 51 Meadowbrook a few weeks ago and ended up using an extra long wobbel head extension and ground down mt socket to shorten it. worked like a charm after that. the bottom bolt i just used a open end wrench to loosen. 

[captden29]

speaking of odd wrenches, I got a 19/32 wrench at a flea market yesterday. I always pick up the unusual sizes when I see them. it almost seems unnecessary to make that size, but perhaps from an early set before metric became popular. only paid .50 for it. if ever needed only once I will be happy to have it.    capt den

[Plymouthy Adams]

then you have to consider if it is worth having a set Whitworth tools on hand.....I have a few but then I also have a few English cars...never ending game and yes, you can never have too many tools...

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, captden29 said:

speaking of odd wrenches, I got a 19/32 wrench at a flea market yesterday. I always pick up the unusual sizes when I see them. it almost seems unnecessary to make that size, but perhaps from an early set before metric became popular. only paid .50 for it. if ever needed only once I will be happy to have it.    capt den

I've had a 17/32 and 19/32 open end wrench in my tool box for over 40 years that came from my father's tool box. It's a thin wrench like a tappet wrench,but in all these years I have never once found anything it fit and don't have a clue what it was made for.

[Young Ed]

While searching for a 12pt socket to fit on a square gas fitting I came across one that wouldn't fit on either a 3/8 or 1/2 inch ratchet. I suspect it's some obsolete drive size. Did they have like 7/16 drive? 

[Don Coatney]

I believe I also have some off size square drive stuff that my dad passed on to me.

[Plymouthy Adams]

41 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

While searching for a 12pt socket to fit on a square gas fitting I came across one that wouldn't fit on either a 3/8 or 1/2 inch ratchet. I suspect it's some obsolete drive size. Did they have like 7/16 drive? 

I have a selection of 8 point sockets, most commonly used for square nuts, there is a 7/16 eight point out there available

[Young Ed]

2 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

I have a selection of 8 point sockets, most commonly used for square nuts, there is a 7/16 eight point out there available

That would have helped greatly with that pipe fitting. I found a 18mm 12point that got the job done. It was behind a water pipe so I couldn't use an adjustable as usual.

Now what about that goofy one that won't fit on either 3/8 or 1/2 ratchet?

[Plymouthy Adams]

3/8-1/2 ratchet drive not fitting......that is uncommon, though it does exist...more than not originally from the UK in origin.......another uncommon from the past I have seen and used sockets that were 6 point driven as in "think Allen head" 

[Jerry Roberts]

5 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

I've had a 17/32 and 19/32 open end wrench in my tool box for over 40 years that came from my father's tool box. It's a thin wrench like a tappet wrench,but in all these years I have never once found anything it fit and don't have a clue what it was made for.

When I was reading up on Henry Ford , the book said that he made a lot of his fasteners an odd size so that he could sell his own make of tools . 

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, Jerry Roberts said:

When I was reading up on Henry Ford , the book said that he made a lot of his fasteners an odd size so that he could sell his own make of tools . 

That's very possible. My father was a Ford man,and wouldn't consider buying anything else if he had a choice. I do remember him having a 38 Studebaker business coupe when I was an infant,but only because he needed a car and that was the used car he could afford at that time.

[8srnad8]

Sorry my business keeps me away for long periods and my sporadic comments are now off topic but I have been thinking about my starter, and before I attempt to remove it anyway, since the problem is premature disengaging, is it possible that the fender mounted solenoid (looks like the typical Ford 2 post style to me) is the culprit?  That's a heck of a lot easier to get to, but the only thing that bothers me (I didn't do the 12V conversion) is that there are a two (I believe only 2) extra wires attached to it.  Any experience and advice on that would be appreciated; I have zero experience in 6-12 volt conversions, but I do know that the Ford solenoids were problematic.  thanks again so much guys, and again sorry for my work taking me away for lengthy periods. 

[Branded]

1 hour ago, 8srnad8 said:

Sorry my business keeps me away for long periods and my sporadic comments are now off topic but I have been thinking about my starter, and before I attempt to remove it anyway, since the problem is premature disengaging, is it possible that the fender mounted solenoid (looks like the typical Ford 2 post style to me) is the culprit?  That's a heck of a lot easier to get to, but the only thing that bothers me (I didn't do the 12V conversion) is that there are a two (I believe only 2) extra wires attached to it.  Any experience and advice on that would be appreciated; I have zero experience in 6-12 volt conversions, but I do know that the Ford solenoids were problematic.  thanks again so much guys, and again sorry for my work taking me away for lengthy periods. 

attempting to diagnose your starter premature disengagement via posts is difficult. Im going to say that the starter drive is most likely the culprit not the solenoid. When the solenoid fails the drive won't engage at all.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Branded

[8srnad8]

4 hours ago, Branded said:

attempting to diagnose your starter premature disengagement via posts is difficult. Im going to say that the starter drive is most likely the culprit not the solenoid. When the solenoid fails the drive won't engage at all.

Well sir I initiated the whole post for help removing the starter because the starter drive was my initial suspicion.  Then I talked to a few other people and they seemed to disagree with me.  Maybe wishful thinking on my part, and I may replace it just because I know they are not that expensive, should be able to get one locally by matching it up, and a lot easier to replace.  Like I said though that being said, its the two "stray" connected wires I'm wondering about.  Also does anyone know if the mounting bolts would be the ground for that unit?

[Don Coatney]

I did not know the Ford solenoids were problematic. Where did you find that information. Pictured below is a Ford starter solenoid I have installed on my P-15.Post #1 goes directly to my 12 volt battery positive post as I have wired my system negative ground. Post #2 goes to my starter button to energies the solenoid when starting the engine. Post #3 goes directly to the distributor side of the ignition coil and supplies a full 12 volts to the coil as long as the starter button is depressed. Post #4 goes directly to the starter motor and is "HOT" only when the starter button is depressed.

One big consideration when wiring a Ford 4 pole solenoid this way is when using a remote starter button under the hood with the ignition key switched in the off position the engine will start and run for the duration the remote button is depressed.

Over 40 thousand trouble free miles with this setup.

[Los_Control]

I cant remember ever having a bad ford solenoid. I have owned many fords over the years,

Sure it can and does happen, but is rare as far as I know..

[DJ194950]

There are solenoids that look  like Don's but they are Not all the same. On Ford "type" the small posts are labeled "S" and "I". The solenoid is grounded through the mounting base. The "S" is connected to the ignition switch start post to activate the starter solenoid  and the other small post (I) goes to the coil for a hot start (full voltage)  as the Ignition from the starter switch is run through a resistor  (externally  mounted)  to lower voltage to the coil after running for a time to lower coil temp. and prolong point life. No built in voltage resistors in the solenoid that I have ever heard of.

The second type that Looks the same is not- the solenoid is Not grounded through the base. One of the small posts needs to be grounded (either one, does not matter) the other needs to be the activator hot (momentary) to make the big connections close to connect the starter to the battery. This type is also used to activate a battery to Many motors/etc. in other uses.

An easy way to test if problem is solenoid or starter Bendix -but makes a big spark -is to use one lead of the jumper cables hooked to one of the big solenoid posts and then connect the other jumper cable to the other big post of the solenoid (the spark) and see if will start (ignition on) the motor without disengagement of the starter  (early withdrawal).

DJ

[8srnad8]

15 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

I did not know the Ford solenoids were problematic. Where did you find that information. Pictured below is a Ford starter solenoid I have installed on my P-15.Post #1 goes directly to my 12 volt battery positive post as I have wired my system negative ground. Post #2 goes to my starter button to energies the solenoid when starting the engine. Post #3 goes directly to the distributor side of the ignition coil and supplies a full 12 volts to the coil as long as the starter button is depressed. Post #4 goes directly to the starter motor and is "HOT" only when the starter button is depressed.

One big consideration when wiring a Ford 4 pole solenoid this way is when using a remote starter button under the hood with the ignition key switched in the off position the engine will start and run for the duration the remote button is depressed.

Over 40 thousand trouble free miles with this setup.

I based that information solely on my being in a no start situation with various fords 60-80's several times personally, and having to jump/by pass the solenoid to start the vehicle by crossing post 2/3 (as you have them labeled nicely) to engage the starter and then having to replace said solenoid.  In fact I always carried a spare.  Kind of like a porcelain ballast resistor type thing for a 70's mopar!  Anyway of further investigation finally last night, my solenoid on the 49 does NOT have posts 2/3.  And the extra wires I spoke of are tucked under the nuts for 1-2 which I still haven't had time to trace yet in the rats nest of wires,  thank you so much for your time and effort and help!  this is the problem with buying a "new" vehicle and starting from scratch (pun intended).

Edited January 18, 2017 by 8srnad8
Wrong number should be posts 1-4

[8srnad8]

I meant to say mine has posts 1 & 4 only.

[8srnad8]

15 hours ago, Los_Control said:

I cant remember ever having a bad ford solenoid. I have owned many fords over the years,

Sure it can and does happen, but is rare as far as I know..

Well to confess, the no start wasn't always on my Ford either, but I can surely remember crossing the posts with a screwdriver several times.

[8srnad8]

12 hours ago, DJ194950 said:

There are solenoids that look  like Don's but they are Not all the same. On Ford "type" the small posts are labeled "S" and "I". The solenoid is grounded through the mounting base. The "S" is connected to the ignition switch start post to activate the starter solenoid  and the other small post (I) goes to the coil for a hot start (full voltage)  as the Ignition from the starter switch is run through a resistor  (externally  mounted)  to lower voltage to the coil after running for a time to lower coil temp. and prolong point life. No built in voltage resistors in the solenoid that I have ever heard of.

The second type that Looks the same is not- the solenoid is Not grounded through the base. One of the small posts needs to be grounded (either one, does not matter) the other needs to be the activator hot (momentary) to make the big connections close to connect the starter to the battery. This type is also used to activate a battery to Many motors/etc. in other uses.

An easy way to test if problem is solenoid or starter Bendix -but makes a big spark -is to use one lead of the jumper cables hooked to one of the big solenoid posts and then connect the other jumper cable to the other big post of the solenoid (the spark) and see if will start (ignition on) the motor without disengagement of the starter  (early withdrawal).

DJ

For clarity, are you saying, by pass the solenoid by (using Don's picture) using a jumper cable from the large post #1 directly to the starter motor, with the key on, to determine if the starter stays engaged properly?  No chance of doing any damage with this test?

[DJ194950]

9 hours ago, 8srnad8 said:

For clarity, are you saying, by pass the solenoid by (using Don's picture) using a jumper cable from the large post #1 directly to the starter motor, with the key on, to determine if the starter stays engaged properly?  No chance of doing any damage with this test?

The way you have stated-from  #1 post (battery connection) to big post on starter will help diagnose whether the solenoid is the problem or starter if if disengagement before motor starting (it no longer happens). Does not disengage early= solenoid, still happens= starter.

What I posted is the same idea just jumping from #1 to #4, which also bypasses the solenoid just using different connection points. I try not to jump anything directly on battery when possible due to chance on a spark at the battery which I have witnessed-blew the sides out of the battery and acid went everywhere! What a mess and dangerous!

Also if I am going to make a fair size spark- the spark will make some pitting on the connection points- I would rather those pits be on a "cheap" solenoid than on the starter big post "more expensive"  to replace if excessive pitting( nut not longer want to come off post! occurs- not often that it gets that bad but if others have done it before---

Also- Just occurred to me- Check that all connections are tight on the back of  ignition switch, solenoid and starter . This has caused problems to occur on other forum members cars. Do not forget the ground connections!

Happy Hunting, I hope I explained my thoughts better this time- or made it worse?

DJ

[Branded]

A lot of good suggestions to help diagnose the starter issue. Your not going to draw and arc that is going to damage any threads. Use one lead of a set of jumper cables from one terminal to the other. Don't over think the process, let us know what you find.