12V jump box on 6V P19?

[Fastback50]

Hi all,

 

So, I have spark everywhere, installed a new fuel pump, filed the points, and can get it to cough when attempting to start it.  Also has a brand new, fully charged 6V Duralast battery.  The problem is, when trying to get it to start, after only maybe 5 minutes of intermittent (I give the starter a break after 20-30 seconds) cranking, it starts to lose steam and we have to stop.  I'm wondering if anyone has ever used a 12V jump box on these systems?  I've read elsewhere that if I leave all my lights/dash stuff  off, I can safely do this for additional/faster cranking power?  Thoughts?

 

I noticed last night that there is quite a bit of fuel sitting at the bottom of the carb/top of the intake--I was pumping the pedal pretty good but am still wondering if this is indicative of a flooding condition, or if it's not intaking fuel for some reason.

 

Lastly, there is some "spring loaded" gizmo on the left side of the block that looks temperature operated....never seen this before on a car.  Service manual is set to arrive today, can't wait to read it front to back and answer some questions I've had.  Thanks all.

 

Joe

[Plymouthy Adams]

how hot are the cables getting...on 6 volt you need much heavier gauge wires and on top of that they should not be subjected to a voltage drop by poor connection points in places you cannot physically see...do a voltage drop test and also a starter draw test...if the rear bush is worn in the starter and causing the armature to drag on the field...you will kill a battery in very short order..specification are in your repair manual..

[TodFitch]

Should have started within that 5 minutes unless something is terribly amiss. Concur with Plymouthy that battery cable size or condition is often a culprit.

 

That '"spring loaded" gizmo on the left side of the block that looks temperature operated' sounds like the temperature sensing bulb and spring wrapped capillary tubing that goes to the temperature gauge.

[knuckleharley]

how hot are the cables getting...on 6 volt you need much heavier gauge wires and on top of that they should not be subjected to a voltage drop by poor connection points in places you cannot physically see...do a voltage drop test and also a starter draw test...if the rear bush is worn in the starter and causing the armature to drag on the field...you will kill a battery in very short order..specification are in your repair manual..

I agree. I think the first thing I would do would be to pull the starter to check and maybe replace the bushing and brushes,and to just clean and lube it.

 

Do NOT use a wire wheel on the field cores! If they don't look slightly reddish,chances are somebody has already cleaned them and removed the varnish,and that is the reason your starter is getting hot.

 

While the starter is off,now is a good time to either clean or replace the nut and washers that hold the battery cable on with new ones,and to clean the cable end that goes to the starter. Heat is the usual cause of starters getting hot too quickly,and that is usually related to a poor ground connection.

 

I would also take a close look at the plug wires,plugs,points,and condenser before trying to start it again. Pooled gas in the bottom of a carb make me nervous. You are one backfire away from a car and maybe a garage/house fire. Make damn sure you put the air filter back on the carb before trying to start it,and make sure you have a charged fire extinguisher handy.

 

A little bit of safe is more valuable than all the "sorry" in the world.

Edited May 14, 2016 by knuckleharley

[Fastback50]

Okay thanks guys.  I will heed the warning, Knuckle, as the last time we were trying to start it my brother took a nice shotgun blast to the ear with his head just outside the hood area (luckily not directly under the hood).  I will also change/clean the connections and pull the starter.  I have no idea about how to service/clean one, but will look it up/figure it out.  My cables are thick--"pro" grade for a 12V system, but I'm not sure what gauge.  The positive was getting warm, the negative was not, and the starter was getting warm, but not hot.  The mystery continues lol....

[Fastback50]

Should have started within that 5 minutes unless something is terribly amiss. Concur with Plymouthy that battery cable size or condition is often a culprit.

 

That '"spring loaded" gizmo on the left side of the block that looks temperature operated' sounds like the temperature sensing bulb and spring wrapped capillary tubing that goes to the temperature gauge.

Thanks for the info, I agree that it should have fired up already if everything is as it should be.  I'd rather get it running right the way it should be, rather than forcing it to run and figuring out the bugs afterwards....

[Fastback50]

T

 

how hot are the cables getting...on 6 volt you need much heavier gauge wires and on top of that they should not be subjected to a voltage drop by poor connection points in places you cannot physically see...do a voltage drop test and also a starter draw test...if the rear bush is worn in the starter and causing the armature to drag on the field...you will kill a battery in very short order..specification are in your repair manual..

Thanks Plymouth---I will look into this as well.  I'm learning a lot which is half the fun

[Fastback50]

I'll check the gauge of the wires tonight--what is recommended?

[Plymouthy Adams]

0 gauge if all your electrical is up to snuff...but 00 is the better deal...if you start getting loses due to voltage drop or drag of a starter you will not have the reserve for the ignition....

[Don Coatney]

Visible gasoline puddling in the intake manifold indicates a flooded condition. remove the spark plugs and check them for wetness. Clean them and/or replace them. Prior to installing them use compressed air to blow out all the cylinders through the spark plug holes. When attempting to start the engine use short 5-6 second bursts of the starter motor then allow it to rest for 10 seconds or so before an other short 5-6 second round of cranking. I am assuming your engine has been statically timed and the ignition system is electrically sound. 

 

Pictured is the temperature sensing capillary tube as Tod mentioned.

 

[greg g]

Find #1 top dead center and do a static timing and assure your wires are correct.  Even if the firing order is correct, you can be one plug off on the dist cap which will cause intermitant popping and coughing but will not start.  And yes over cranking and pumping the gas  will cause flooding.  You should probably pull your plugs and make sure they are clean and dry.  On a properly set up situation it should start and run on way less than 30 seconds of cranking.  If you must do anything with the gas pedal while cranking just hold it wide open.

[greg g]

If you feel you must use your jumper, connect the negative lead to the large terminal on the starter side of the solenoid, then use positive to ground to a cylinder head bolt to energize the starter. ( Takes the 6v battery out of the loop while cranking)   Make sure your ign swithc is in the run position.

[_shel_ny]

My guess is the spring loaded gizmo is actually on the right side of the block.

 

Heat riser?

 

Does  a P19 have a sisson automatic choke?

Edited May 14, 2016 by shel_ny

[Fastback50]

My guess is the spring loaded gizmo is actually on the right side of the block.

 

Heat riser?

 

Does  a P19 have a sisson automatic choke?

 

It is the heat control valve in your second pic.  And yes it has the automatic choke...

Edited May 14, 2016 by jxc330

[_shel_ny]

It is the heat control valve in your second pic.  And yes it has the automatic choke...

 

Added the pic of the choke just in case, as it is also a spring loaded gizmo

 

You can read up on the heat riser operation in your service manual.

[knuckleharley]

Okay thanks guys.  I will heed the warning, Knuckle, as the last time we were trying to start it my brother took a nice shotgun blast to the ear with his head just outside the hood area (luckily not directly under the hood).  I will also change/clean the connections and pull the starter.  I have no idea about how to service/clean one, but will look it up/figure it out.  My cables are thick--"pro" grade for a 12V system, but I'm not sure what gauge.  The positive was getting warm, the negative was not, and the starter was getting warm, but not hot.  The mystery continues lol....

If it is backfiring,you need to check the timing and the spark plug wiring to make sure the plug wires are connected in the correct order. If they are off,you are not going to get it started no matter what you do.

[knuckleharley]

Visible gasoline puddling in the intake manifold indicates a flooded condition. remove the spark plugs and check them for wetness. Clean them and/or replace them. Prior to installing them use compressed air to blow out all the cylinders through the spark plug holes. When attempting to start the engine use short 5-6 second bursts of the starter motor then allow it to rest for 10 seconds or so before an other short 5-6 second round of cranking. I am assuming your engine has been statically timed and the ignition system is electrically sound. 

 

Pictured is the temperature sensing capillary tube as Tod mentioned.

 

Don,I am eaten alive with envy at that oil filter with the primo decal.

[Don Coatney]

Don,I am eaten alive with envy at that oil filter with the primo decal.

And that is the correct decal for that full flow oil filter. You will find folks who have installed that decal on by pass filters and that is totally incorrect.

[blue p15]

I had a similar battle getting mine to run.  The culprit ending up being the condensor!  I think the one on it now is the 5th or 6th one that was put on it.  They can be bad right out of the box.

[knuckleharley]

And that is the correct decal for that full flow oil filter. You will find folks who have installed that decal on by pass filters and that is totally incorrect.

How can you tell the difference between a full flow and a bypass filter by looking?

[knuckleharley]

I had a similar battle getting mine to run.  The culprit ending up being the condensor!  I think the one on it now is the 5th or 6th one that was put on it.  They can be bad right out of the box.

Like with everything else,it pays to try to find one not made in China.

[Young Ed]

How can you tell the difference between a full flow and a bypass filter by looking?

It's slightly cutoff in Don's picture but his filter bolts directly to the block with no external oil lines. All the bypass ones have external oil lines. Only some of the 25" blocks have the option of the full flow filter. The 23"s never had it. 

[Don Coatney]

Full flow.

 

 

By pass

 

[knuckleharley]

It's slightly cutoff in Don's picture but his filter bolts directly to the block with no external oil lines. All the bypass ones have external oil lines. Only some of the 25" blocks have the option of the full flow filter. The 23"s never had it. 

Thanks,Young Ed

[knuckleharley]

 Thanks,Don,Young Ed

 

Nothing splains stuff to dummies like me better than pictures.

 

Now,what filters do you recommend for them,and what are the parts numbers?

Edited May 15, 2016 by knuckleharley