Optimum gearing ideas

[Jeff Balazs]

jeff,

 

can you use second more to start off with?  especially taking advantage of the fluid drive?  going into third & fourth should be fine, right?  you just don't get to downshift into second so easily.  man, i'd try a lot of things before switching to an auto tranny.

 

wally

Wally I do use 2nd to take off. If the truck has had a chance to warm up good then taking off in 2nd on the fluid drive works ok...but when it is still cold it either stumbles a little bit or can stall. Stalling here is a good way to get rear ended.

 

Jeff

[Reg Evans]

Jeff,

Maybe the only modification your truck really needs is it's address.  Move on up to Nor Cal !

Reg

[Jeff Balazs]

I am committed to keeping a flathead in this truck. I just feel like swapping something else in would destroy the real character of the old beast.

Reg you are right about modifying the address......I am working on that but it is a ways off. Also I want to be able to take fairly long trips with this truck so I want to get it right.

 

My gut feel is that all it really needs is a little more power which I think is very do able. And some fine tuning of the gear box situation or gearing. I don't know what all could be done with the existing transmission but by far it would be easiest to retain it. Could a clever machinist add synchro to 2nd gear? If this could be done and the transmission completely rebuilt for say $1500 then I would probably go that route and be happy with it. It would be cheaper and less complicated than any swap. And it would be close to original still. I suppose the second option here would be to change the gearing to 3.73 in the rear end I have in this truck. I would want to wait on this until I have done some stuff to the engine. As it is right now 55 to 60 on level ground is no issue at all and it is very quiet and comfortable in the cab.

 

Pretty much everything I end up doing at this stage needs to be a quick turnaround project. I don't want this truck out of daily service for more than 2 or 3 days if I can help it.

 

Jeff

[Don Coatney]

the drivers behind you have the option of leaving home earlier if they in that big of a hurry...even in my daily driver, I like them fast boys in front of me as radar target..I'll give them the entire highway and wave as they are getting their blue light special to go...

Old car or new car I always maintain my personal comfort zone between me and the car in front of me. And I always leave home early enough to arrive at my destination ahead of schedule. If the drivers behind me ride my rear bumper I slow down so they can pass me and then I can watch them ride the rear bumper of the vehicle in front of me as I once again maintain my comfort zone. On a 2 lane road I normally stay in the right lane. It always amazes me that at the next stoplight the idiots that have passed me are once again behind me as the right lane usually moves faster through a stop light due to the cars making a right turn. I also pay attention to the lines on the road although most drivers do not.

[jeffsunzeri]

I am also very interested in this set-up too Jeff.

A833s are more money up here than T5s, to, not that it is a big deal.

Will it work well with a 3.23 rear end in my light truck, I wonder?

The A-833's came in all sorts of Mopar vehicles. For the older flathead vehicles, I've kept an eye on the local pick-n-pull yards for years for the old Aspen/Volares from 75 on up, and they come available regularly. They provide the clutch disc and complete trans for less than $100. I also scope out the Craigslist ads and find the fine-spline A-833's from time to time for free-to-cheap.

I've been running a 3.2:1 rear in my WC-15 for several years with the 4-speed granny, and am looking forward to putting in an A-833. It should work out great as the 1-3 gears on the A-833 come real close to the 2-4 gears on the original granny box.

[Jeff Balazs]

Ah...yes Don. And if everybody behaved in this manner we wouldn't be having this discussion. But that isn't going to happen in this age of entitlement.

Instead we have constantly expect the drivers around us to behave badly. When I was teaching my daughters how to drive the one thing I was able to get across to them was to just expect the drivers around them to pull the most ridiculous moves. It only took me saying "watch this idiot do this" a few times right before the did it before they learned that Dad wasn't always wrong. So far so good between the two of them neither has had even a fender bender in more than fifteen combined years of driving. Now if they could only learn how to park.......

 

Jeff I was wondering about another version that had no OD but had 2nd and 3rd that straddled the ratio of my existing 3rd. Seems to me this might make a better match to the available power. What do you think?

 

Jeff

[wallytoo]

jeff,

 

i thought that the truck 4-speed normally had a synchro for 2nd, but not 1st.  clearly i was mistaken.

 

i don't know, the more you describe the conditions you have to drive in, the more i think you should just f* it wheel it (FIWI).  2nd gear starts should be fine, so what if you don't accelerate like a corvette?  drive it as is for a while longer yet, and don't let the nitwits bother you.

 

wally

[Jeff Balazs]

jeff,

 

i thought that the truck 4-speed normally had a synchro for 2nd, but not 1st.  clearly i was mistaken.

 

i don't know, the more you describe the conditions you have to drive in, the more i think you should just f* it wheel it (FIWI).  2nd gear starts should be fine, so what if you don't accelerate like a corvette?  drive it as is for a while longer yet, and don't let the nitwits bother you.

 

wally

Wally I was under that impression too when I bought it. To be honest I haven't found much on the subject. Guess I will have to dig out the parts book. One thing is for sure I don't have it right now.....

Jeff

[55 Fargo]

The A-833's came in all sorts of Mopar vehicles. For the older flathead vehicles, I've kept an eye on the local pick-n-pull yards for years for the old Aspen/Volares from 75 on up, and they come available regularly. They provide the clutch disc and complete trans for less than $100. I also scope out the Craigslist ads and find the fine-spline A-833's from time to time for free-to-cheap.

I've been running a 3.2:1 rear in my WC-15 for several years with the 4-speed granny, and am looking forward to putting in an A-833. It should work out great as the 1-3 gears on the A-833 come real close to the 2-4 gears on the original granny box.

Hey thanx Jeff, yes the gear ratio, on the A833, from 1st to 3rd, is almost the same as the granny 4spd from 2nd to 4th.

I am gonna start looking, even with a 3.23 diff, can always downshift from OD 4th to 3rd when necessary.

Or can look at another set of diff gears at some point too....

[jeffsunzeri]

 Could a clever machinist add synchro to 2nd gear?

Short answer, no. It would take more than cleverness. Truck transmissions with granny-gear first and synchro on the remaining three began in the '60's, I believe. It may be a simple retrofit, worth investigating.

Also, when you modify the flathead for more power you will also change the power curve, usually narrowing the power band and moving it higher up the rev range. Something to consider.

[55 Fargo]

Hi Jeff S, my trans, which is a T98 Acme,used in Canada, and for powerwagons too. This trans is synchronized from 2nd to 4th, is this different than the US built 55 dodges?

[Jeff Balazs]

Short answer, no. It would take more than cleverness. Truck transmissions with granny-gear first and synchro on the remaining three began in the '60's, I believe. It may be a simple retrofit, worth investigating.

Also, when you modify the flathead for more power you will also change the power curve, usually narrowing the power band and moving it higher up the rev range. Something to consider.

Those are both good points. I will have to take a look at the later transmissions....only thing may be the interface or compatibility with the fluid drive components I already have....unless there was a FD version or option?

 

As far as engine mods go all I am considering at the moment is a set of Langdon headers and split the exhaust. A late 50's 2 bbl manifold and carb and a slight boost in compression. Definitely nothing too radical. Just going by a seat of the pants feel for the truck a gain of 10 to 15 HP would probably be adequate. I have not messed about with one of these flatheads before but I can't imagine this sort of mod having much in the way of negatives associated with it as long as I don't raise the compression too much. Am I way off here?

 

Jeff

[55 Fargo]

Anyone ever do a 0-60 mph test with their flathead powered vehicles?

[jeffsunzeri]

Hi Jeff S, my trans, which is a T98 Acme,used in Canada, and for powerwagons too. This trans is synchronized from 2nd to 4th, is this different than the US built 55 dodges?

Probably not. In 1955 trucks could come with NP 4-speeds as well as Acme and I think at least one other manufacturer (or more). I didn't think any of them got synchros in 2nd until later. Who knew!

Vintage Power Wagons has an identification chart to tell one trans from another.

It's hard to tell the players without a scorecard!

[John-T-53]

Don;

I am sure your car has the power advantage going for it. Bigger engine that has mods.......probably a bit lighter and 27" tires versus 29" on my truck. Heck just that tire diameter difference is fairly significant.

I know that several people have used the T5 in trucks. It seems like they like it. Just looking at the photos you posted makes it look like even with the shifter forward it would be in my bench seat......and I really like the seat. Maybe these guys have put buckets in?......I don't want to do that. Just ruins the feel to me.

 

Jeff

Jeff:

The T-5 with the truck tailshaft will clear the bench seat. Check out the link to my T-5 project in my preceding post. Lots of pictures.

Also, if you come up to the Clements get-together next April I'll let you take my truck for a spin. You'll like it, I guarantee it.

[55 Fargo]

Okay, just returned from the 0 to 60 mph test, as verified by digital time, and GPS speed.

55 Fargo 250, 4 spd, 3.23 rear end, P 235 75 15 tires, 250 lbs in the box, 3300 lb truck approximately, I weight 210 lbs, so roughly 3800 GVW.

Ready, set go, 30 seconds...........yikes, this could be dangerous in some driving environments, after 60 she cruises very easy at 65 to 70 mph....

[ggdad1951]

Okay, just returned from the 0 to 60 mph test, as verified by digital time, and GPS speed.

55 Fargo 250, 4 spd, 3.23 rear end, P 235 75 15 tires, 250 lbs in the box, 3300 lb truck approximately, I weight 210 lbs, so roughly 3800 GVW.

Ready, set go, 30 seconds...........yikes, this could be dangerous in some driving environments, after 60 she cruises very easy at 65 to 70 mph....

 

I would be infinity to get to 60MPH

[Jeff Balazs]

Jeff:

The T-5 with the truck tailshaft will clear the bench seat. Check out the link to my T-5 project in my preceding post. Lots of pictures.

Also, if you come up to the Clements get-together next April I'll let you take my truck for a spin. You'll like it, I guarantee it.

Yes we will have to do that. How does your truck handle something like the Sepulveda Pass?

It is funny but I have had more than one person tell me I sound just like him.

[55 Fargo]

Okay , so 0 to 60 mph ET, has changed a whole heap in 60 years. Tonight I did a 0 to 60 mph test in my 5500 lb Hemi Ram crew cab 4X4, in less than 7 seconds, now that's truck performance.

While I like my off topic truck, and am grateful I own it,I still like my little old beater more, go figure....

[Jeff Balazs]

Okay , so 0 to 60 mph ET, has changed a whole heap in 60 years. Tonight I did a 0 to 60 mph test in my 5500 lb Hemi Ram crew cab 4X4, in less than 7 seconds, now that's truck performance.

While I like my off topic truck, and am grateful I own it,I still like my little old beater more, go figure....

Fred;

I think it is because the newer stuff is too good at isolating or cushioning you from the reality of the road and traveling. They take much of the sense of adventure out of the experience. I call it travel atrophy ....... they are just too good at separating you from the journey. They are all about arriving as quick as is possible and and as unflustered as imaginable. They are so good at it most now have to have some sort of on board entertainment system to keep you occupied.

 

My sister asked me recently why I enjoy that awful old thing. As I tried to convey the experience to her it came to me that driving one of these old trucks was more like being a pilot or operating a boat. Driving one of these keeps you completely occupied. You feel all the bumps...hear all the sounds...smell all the smells....and watch everything. And every trip has that old sense of adventure again. Make me feel like I have been given back some long lost treasure......and in a sense that is true.

 

Jeff

[Plymouthy Adams]

Jeff Balazs, on 12 Dec 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Fred;

I think it is because the newer stuff is too good at isolating or cushioning you from the reality of the road and traveling. They take much of the sense of adventure out of the experience. I call it travel atrophy ....... they are just too good at separating you from the journey. They are all about arriving as quick as is possible and and as unflustered as imaginable. They are so good at it most now have to have some sort of on board entertainment system to keep you occupied.

 

My sister asked me recently why I enjoy that awful old thing. As I tried to convey the experience to her it came to me that driving one of these old trucks was more like being a pilot or operating a boat. Driving one of these keeps you completely occupied. You feel all the bumps...hear all the sounds...smell all the smells....and watch everything. And every trip has that old sense of adventure again. Make me feel like I have been given back some long lost treasure......and in a sense that is true.

 

Jeff

Jeff....you sound like a prime candidate for a small English sports car..sounds, smells and the optimistic outlook  that yes, I will arrive on time and not on a tow hook...

[Jeff Balazs]

John thank you again for your input. I went back through your build thread. Really first class stuff. I will have to look more at doing something like this. I would like to retain my rear axle but maybe there is a close ratio non OD version of this transmission that would do the trick for me.

In order to be truly useful as a fully functional daily driver it needs to be able to accelerate up hills within the flow of traffic. If it had a 5 speed without the granny gear and 5th gear that was at 1 to1 it would in effect be quite similar to what you have built.

 

Jeff

Footnote; Looks like a T5 is not going to be an option as they are all OD from what I am seeing. That isn't going to work with my 3.55 rear axle.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Jeff Balazs

[JBNeal]

Since I ironed out the suspension & brake issues with The Blue Bomber, that 14yr old dsl Dodge is a dream to drive as it has power to spare and I can feel the road as I jockey the beast to my destination. My neighbor, a lifelong GM & FMC owner, picked up a 2015 Ram 1500 Ecodsl and we recently took a day trip to tend to his property 5 counties over...the ride was smooth & quiet, like sitting on a nice couch to watch the TV on a lazy day, it was hard to tell that we were zipping down the Pickle Parkway at 80+ for most of that trip. I commented to him that his Ram made my Ram feel like an antique, as it's a bit of a screamer when ya get over 65...I did not tell him that I preferred my old beast cuz it had a brutish feel to it, but I did say that they do not make'm like that anymore. And when I'm driving a B-series, it has an even more seat-of-the-pants feel that is quite enjoyable on a nice leisurely day

[55 Fargo]

I also enjoy the old car/truck ride, don't feel the need for frame or sub frame swaps, as of yet. On the HAMB, where traditional rules apply to threads, a young Guy, is building an old truck, modern SBC sub framed etc. He was also doing extremely talented custom metal works on it. The Mods locked the thread over the non traditional upgrades, they do take this seriously over there.

I will put it you this way, when I go to work, or need to make quick trips to the City, I am happy to have the most modern technology, this is especially true, when it's a dark winter morning, with blowing snow, huge drifts and a -40 windchill. I am not saying older equipment won't work then well too, but am glad what I have for this purpose...

[Jeff Balazs]

Jeff....you sound like a prime candidate for a small English sports car..sounds, smells and the optimistic outlook  that yes, I will arrive on time and not on a tow hook...

Tim;

Been there ...done that. My favorite all time car to drive was a 100-6 AH that I bought for $160. I am just not a car guy anymore. The Pilothouse will have to do....and do it, it will....somehow...some way. As I have said before it has to. Last vehicle I will buy so no choice. Full set of tools and spares on board or at hand. And just the thought of calling for a tow turns my stomach.

(He said after painting himself into a corner with no face to save)