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How much does it cost to "improve a car"?


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Posted

Me again and I believe I am the man for the more "philosophical questions". Because how much is the cost of a car? From 5.000 to probably 5 Mio or even more! Hence, I know a question like this is very difficult to answer. What I am, however looking for is a "general" discussion to help me out on a thought of mine.

 

I guess some of you will have noticed that a 1949 Plymouth is on my purchase agenda. And now, in DA I might have found one. (Why 1949? Well more seeting space than in a 1948 in the back; I do really like the fin design in the rear end; A 1950 version feels almost too "bland" in comparison). 

 

The price for this car is reasonable with some room to haggle, so I believe. But than, the car is not perfect and will need quite a bit of TLC, because I really would like it to look as stock, as original, as almost directly out of the factory as possible. Honestly, shipping this car to Germany and having those things done would blow my budget (local costs, local taxes, local issues of being an US car).

 

And sorry guys doing it myself certainly is beyond my time, skill and space potential, unfortunately.

 

Therefore I had the idea of finding a garage locally in the pick-up area (DA or closeby PA area) and get those things done. The question: Will it be more affordable for me, is therefore my budget realistic or not?

 

What will need to be done:

  • The paint job (mexican red) looks okay on the photo but has surely got quite a few cracks. So that will have to be worked on. I know, this is not done by just a few "putting a bit of paint on a few areas" but it will definitely involve a complete "make over". Also in the engine compartment area. Also the trunk would need a bit of paint. One or two scratches on the dashboard.
  • The top has a few cracks so should be replaced. That I have gathered would be in the region of around 700$ plus labour.
  • The interior is in parts okay, in parts needs replacement. The result: It probably all should be redone to look homogenous (no leather is required, certainly too dear).
  • The carpet replacement would add another 500$ including insulating the floor a bit.
  • Some trim parts need to be replaced (that I have calculated with around 700).
  • Obvious rust issues "The underneath of the rocker panel is rusted.  I have fiber-glassed the floor boards. The lower part of the passenger door has a couple of bubble spots that may need attention" So this needs TLC and parts exchange. Parts I have seen to be on offer for that somehow in the region of 700$.
  • A bit off additional work in regard to bits and pieces, cabelling issues etc.

 

So what is your feeling: What could that possibly cost? I know from . . . to probably 25.000$ (a budget I certainly don't have)? This discussion will help me to understand if I should persue this path any further.

 

And, do you happen to know by any chance a garage who could do that for me in the bespoke region. Of course, for detailed briefing matters I would fly over more than happily :-)

 

Posted

Thomba.......this is a 1949 Plymouth Convertible I assume?.......the most cost effective way would be to buy a car with as much done already as this way ALWAYS is cheaper as you pay for individual things to be done if you get the car restored, whereas the sum total of all the individual "restoration" jobs are in the total cost of a completed restoration LESS a discount for the total job.......ie........it might cost $30,000 to have all the work done BUT the car is only worth $15,000 so is put on the market for $18,00 or near offer.....and is sold for $15,000..................a saving of $15,000............just my 3cents Oz.......................andyd 

Posted

You're getting pretty close to a complete cosmetic restoration there. I think you'd end up spending 10-15K for a quality job and even that might be low. I think your top estimate is low. Dads been quoted 2500-3000 for a new top for his 51. Also the reason he's looking at a new one is the premade one he had installed before was borderline too small and has now shrunk a little so it no longer covers the sides of the top bows. I believe Bob T also is having trouble with a premade top right now.

Posted

as you are also in Germany and we here in the US really have no clear idea as to the daily rates or hourly charges that most support shops may charge finding cost for completion of any task will be difficult.  I can only say that for every task farmed out it will be quite the chunk of change compared to the man who does his own work.  You have estimated each phase of your chart yourself...while some are close to what some may call reasonable...often reason does not enter into any contract with the older cars...then you have the very limited time factor as most shops turn the later model fully insured car suffering collision damage for the absolute quick money for all parts are available for plug and play body work..often this collision work is their very bread and butter and they cannot spend the time on older cars where parts are hand formed and then welded to the car.  Your best estimate will probably come from a group of you buds with similar old cars that have had similar work done in your general area.  Perhaps a discussion with them over a lunch would garner more realistic costs and a list of agents/shops in your area willing and able to perform the tasks at hand.

Posted

Thanks for all your notes. I do understand the impossibilities I am enforcing on you.

 

And Andy, you are absolutely right. As I experienced previously. It is just a reasonable question if many 49 do come over time :-)

 

I'll continue my thinking process :-)

Posted

I personally applaud you for taking the time to research what things will cost and asking hard questions.  It always seems to be way more expensive than you originally think.  For example, I bought my 50 Desoto for a measly $1200.  It was a running/driving-ish car.  The interior was not great but it was a rust free Wyoming car that was complete and original down to the pack of Pall Mall cigarettes packs under the seat.  Since then I spent $4200 on the interior (which was a very good deal from a friend), $1500+ on getting the disc brakes installed (this doesn't include my labor, just finishing things up), another $1000 for small miscellaneous items and at least another $1000 in parts like taillight lenses, chrome parts, another $1000 for tires...and remember, this was a very solid car AND I haven't done any bodywork....so right now I have over $10k in a car that maybe is worth $6k.... 

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  • Like 1
Posted

I personally applaud you for taking the time to research what things will cost and asking hard questions.  It always seems to be way more expensive than you originally think.  For example, I bought my 50 Desoto for a measly $1200.  It was a running/driving-ish car.  The interior was not great but it was a rust free Wyoming car that was complete and original down to the pack of Pall Mall cigarettes packs under the seat.  Since then I spent $4200 on the interior (which was a very good deal from a friend), $1500+ on getting the disc brakes installed (this doesn't include my labor, just finishing things up), another $1000 for small miscellaneous items and at least another $1000 in parts like taillight lenses, chrome parts, another $1000 for tires...and remember, this was a very solid car AND I haven't done any bodywork....so right now I have over $10k in a car that maybe is worth $6k.... 

I surely hope you shall be finished soon. I must say on the good side: what has been done is how you wanted it to be. So the "personal" link is also a value, although maybe not worth a 4k top-up :-)

 

I guess where I am also kind of coming from is: There is one type of car of one particular year that I have decided upon. Call it stupid, yes I am. Of course I could wait for a non-definable time (and of course this car is not something I actually need :-)), but still these cars probably come-up . . . I don't know how often.

Posted

You're getting pretty close to a complete cosmetic restoration there. I think you'd end up spending 10-15K for a quality job and even that might be low. I think your top estimate is low. Dads been quoted 2500-3000 for a new top for his 51. Also the reason he's looking at a new one is the premade one he had installed before was borderline too small and has now shrunk a little so it no longer covers the sides of the top bows. I believe Bob T also is having trouble with a premade top right now.

Well, if that figure was about right (I mean the arithmetical average) I would almost give this project a go :-)

Posted (edited)

My advice and it has already been mentioned previously is to WAIT and buy a car that has already been restored and therefore needs little done to it. Buying a car that needs all the work you say, and having it worked on in a different country by someone you have no real control over is a can of worms you do not want to open. You would be MUCH, MUCH better off spending more intiallly to save money in the long run. Also, have someone check any car over for you before buying. There are certified antique car appraisers just about everywhere who will do this. A forum member may be in the area and could look at it also.

Edited by RobertKB
  • Solution
Posted (edited)

My advice and it has already been mentioned previously it to WAIT and buy a car that has already been restored and therefore needs little done to it. Buying a car that needs all the work you say, and having it worked on in a different country by someone you have no real control over is a can of worms you do not want to open. You would be MUCH, MUCH better off spending more intiallly to save money in the long run. Also, have someone check any car over for you before buying. There are certified antique car appraisers just about everywhere who will do this. A forum member may be in the area and could look at it also.

 

Again - thanks. And who would like to eat worms :-)

 

The pre-check fortunately is about to happen. To be honest I just wanted to get a better picture of the cost reality in the US for these kind of tasks. So bearing all the above in mind, I certainly see all your points. And I guess this will simply result in me learning again how it feels to be patient :-)

 

Thanks to you all again for sharing your competences and knowledge with me. Thom

Edited by Thomba48
Posted (edited)

I believe you will find that no shop will do the work on your car for a fixed price. If they do accept a fixed price job, I would recommend walking away. Reputable shops will charge by the hour because each job exposes items which need repair as the primary job progresses. For example, on a paint job, you really can't tell how damaged the metal is until the old paint is removed.

 

Reputable shops will give an estimated cost in hours/money and update that estimate as work progresses. Get a written estimate which includes estimated dates of completion. Even though you are not in the U.S. you have leverage with written contracts.

 

The work you describe sounds as though it might easily be in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 2,000 hours of labor. Parts costs would be added to that.

 

In California, a labor rate of $80 - $100 per hour is common and reasonable. I don't know what current rates on the east coast of the U.S. are, but I would expect about the same. Also, remember well: you get what you pay for.

 

Make sure to ask for references of past work for any shop in the U.S. you choose. Check those references carefully.

Edited by jeffsunzeri
Posted

Another angle.  Spend what you need to make the car run, drive, and stop and be dependable.  Tires, brakes, suspension/steering. Then get out there driving it.

 

You will meet folks who can assist you, or refer you to people who can do the improvements and upgrades you are looking for.  A small ripe in the top can be repaired, and if you want to show the car, put the top down.  I got estimates from 1500 USD to 5000 usd to have my interior redone.  My wife and I made seat covers, new door panels ourselves with upholstery fabric from a fabric store.  You may also be able to find things you need at swap meets etc. But getting out and about with other owners and enthusiasts can put you onto the trail for finding people and places that can assist you with the work or do the work for you.  

Posted (edited)

Here is what appears to be a pretty decent '50 Plymouth convertible that would not require a lot of work. I know it is not a '49 but it should give you an idea of what prices are like. Engine needs detailing.Says 19,000 miles but that could be 119,000 or anywhere in between if the odometer has been replaced. That is why it is good to have a certified appraiser look at the car. Price is negotiable as mentioned in the ad. Not mine and I don't know the seller. http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/plymouth/special_deluxe/1684948.html

Edited by RobertKB
Posted

My rule of thumb is that for every $1.00 I spend to improve my old Plymouth the value of the car probably increases by $0.25 to $0.50.

 

If only this wasn't so painfully true.  I no longer price improvements to my car in relationship to what it is worth but simply as the cost to get the job done -- a matter of stewardship. :D

  • Like 2
Posted

Thom,

Have patiance and look for the car you realy want (quality and type). Buy it and drive it. Then learn how to improve it. Doing it your selve realy is an interesting job and makes you feal different towards your car. It 'll become a part of your family, more then a pet.

I didn't know anyting about US cars. Bought a '55 that looked pretty good and started to work on it. It's fun. This forum is all you need to know. We all contribute, you find out, have patience and enjoy.

I buy all the parts in the US my selve. Have it send over to the Netherlands wit USPS. Rule of thumb, price is about 2x when it's on my doorstep.

For the enigine overhaul: I did (dis)assembly my selve, bought the parst my selve. Total cost including machine shop €4500 with all the moving parst replaced.

and.....not to forget: looking for the right one to buy is fun too. 

Edwin

Posted

Dutch & Thomba......something you guys might want to take into account........when I was chasing parts for my 1941 Plymouth Coupe and in particular engine parts for the 230 hop up engine I certainly bought stuff from the US via Ebay and places like Andy Berbaum ...........BUT  I found that there was occasionally a couple of guys in Instanbul, Turkey selling US made mopar parts under ebay listings for 1948 Plymouth.............I ended up getting a full set of lifters, intake & exhaust valves, oil pump, timing chain and gears from these guys and the price was about 1/2 of what the same items were in the US, let alone what they were here in Oz..............apparently Chrysler established a middle east parts depot or something in Turkey and all these parts were genuine mopar in mopar boxes or Federal Mogul or similar, all new, in perfect condition and sent promptly..........I paid via paypal in US dollars..........the other thing to consider is that isn't Turkey now part of the EU, and there maybe some better deal getting parts from there rather than elsewhere.........they also had other mechanical parts and sometimes body parts.................anyway my 2 Oz cents worth..........andyd    

Posted

Still postage might be cheaper than from the US..........will go sit back in my corner now..........lol.............andyd

Posted

Thanks again for your insights. And yes Turkey has not yet managed to be accepted to the Europea Union. Not that the current state of the eu makes it something so exciting to join. Still I shall look into the source indicated should that be required.

With my previous P15 Business Coupe I was insofar lucky that beyond gadgets (and of those I had quite a few) and a starter and some occasional small things parts were not that high on demand. That is what I like about the technology of that time

Posted

Depends on what parts you need.........personally after having had the 40 Dodge for 43yrs I've collected most of what I need, however the internet has made access to stuff that I could have only dreamt about yrs ago......ie, in the early 70's when I needed 1/4 vent rubber the only ones I could find remotely suitable to a 1940 Dodge here in Oz was that used on VW beetles........so that's what it has.........when I needed to replace the 1/4 vent rubbers on the 1941 Plymouth it was just a matter of contacting Andy Bernbaum to confirm the availability then in about 2 weeks I had the exact pieces.......some mechanical parts are here in Oz still but in most cases its cheaper and more importantly more accurate in getting the parts from overseas........andyd

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