Car is back together but still won’t start!

[perrymedik]

The great thing about my job - unlimited access to exam gloves!  Anyone over 40? LOL!!!

[William Davey]

Perry - I think Don offers good advice.  If the valve springs look this bad, what do you think is in the bottom of the oil pan?  What kind of gunk is being picked up by the oil pump?  If you ever get the valve moving, will it seat well enough to actually give you compression?  I think you've found the tip of the iceberg and now is the time to fix it once, fix it right.

[perrymedik]

I have already pulled the oil pan and cleaned it, yes it was 3 inches full of sludge that wouldn't drain.  I've drained the fresh oil and am getting into the cleaning of everything.  Then I'll drop the pan and clean it again.  I have a fresh oil pan filter on stand by for once everything gets cleaned up and running.

[perrymedik]

Update 6:

 

Got the access panel off under the front passenger finder.  Cleaned it all out.  Spring is definitely broken. 

 

 

Been soaking the whole valve train in PB Blaster penetrating oil all morning and have rented a valve spring compressor tool.  Going to give removal a try here shortly.  Fingers crossed it’s easy-ish. . .  

 

Then it will be time to give everything a thorough clean, lap the valves and begin reinstall. 

 

To be honest, I’m having fun now that I’m done being mad! LOL!

 

Thanks to all!!

Cory

[perrymedik]

Wrong tool or wrong method?

 

I rented this Spring Compression tool from AutoZone today.

 

 

It describes putting the pin on the center of the valve top and then compressing.

 

I put a piece of hard wood over the valve then did as it instructed because I was nervous about putting the metal against metal and causing a scratch.

 

When I put pressure all it did was torque the jaws around the spring and make the puller bow and didn’t move the spring up at all.

After straightening out the jaws I put wood blocking around the valve head to make a raised bridge and compressed.

 

 

The spring and valve both rose.  The locks (keepers) did not come out of the retainer.  I used a magnet to try to encourage them, but no luck.  I tried to tap around the bottom of the retainer get the locks to fall, but there really wasn’t much space due to the jaws of the compression tool being in the way.

 

 

I searched the site for “Spring Compression Tool” and found this tool posted by Don Coatney.

 

http://p15-d24.com/topic/35374-valve-spring-compression-tool/?p=359494

 

While this tool does seem to be a bit more sturdy, it was noted that the spring and valve both rose, much like mine is doing.

 

Is it okay once I get the spring and valve raised to strike the top of the valve with a rubber dead blow hammer to push the valve assembly down and out of the spring?  I don’t want to damage it.  I found Youtube videos detailing the process on modern engines, but could not find a how to on flat six’s.  Some say that you can strike the top of the valve, and some say that if you do, you can not reuse the valve.

 

I would also like to mention that my Service Manual is explicitly unhelpful on the matter.  It says under the ‘Removal and Inspection’ section, and I quote “Remove the valves and brush away all carbon. . .”  End story.  No other help offered.

 

My searches on the web have all lead to articles about modern engines, but nothing of use for my situation.

A little help please?

[thrashingcows]

Good attitude.  No sense being made at something you can't change.  Put a mile on your face, laugh a little to yourself and get to work fixing and doing what must be done.

 

I really hope it all works out for you.

[thrashingcows]

Yes you can tap the valve face to get it to drop down and free up the keepers.  I would use either a brass punch, or a piece of wood to try and minimize any potential damage to your valve.  Also try and hit it as straight as possible, and not very hard, you don't want to accidentally bend the valve.

[casper50]

I had a stuck valve when I received my coupe.  I removed the head squirted PB blaster around it and placed a 2X4 on it and lightly tapped with a hammer until it was free.  Works now.  Did I damage it so that I need to change it?  I do not know.

[Merle Coggins]

The retainer is stuck. I'd go back to to your first setup so that the spring compressor actually holds the valve down. Then when you clamp it down get underneath and tap up on the retainer using a punch or long screwdriver. With the tension of the compressor on it, it should pop loose. Or you may even just be able to give the bottom of the arm a tap with your hammer to loosen it up.

 

Merle

Edited November 8, 2014 by Merle Coggins

[Don Coatney]

Suggest you stuff a rag in the oil valley below the valve to prevent the keeper from falling into the oil pan when it does pop loose. Suggest you use a large drift punch such as an old king pin pictured below. Center this punch on top of the valve. With the spring compressed lightly tap on the top of the drift punch with a small hammer. Make several light taps not one big one. Once it moves and exposes the keepers you may have to use a magnet on a stick to capture the keepers. Don't lose them as you will need them when re-installing the valve. Hold the keepers in place with grease when re-installing. 

 

[perrymedik]

Don: I saw you post that advice on another posting and put some rags down just to be on the safe side.  I also found the same Compression tool that you showed in your photo on eBay and went ahead and picked that up.  It looks sturdier, less likely to slip and will give me free access to the tops of the valves.

 

Unfortunately it won't be here until the 14th of this month, so I'll be sitting on my hands until then.  I have a few other small items I can work on in the mean time while I have this lull.

[DutchEdwin]

Perry

While waiting for that tester, I still haven't heard anything on getting the carb fixed.

I had a working carb. Took it off the engine and had it off for 5 years. After that time all fuel had turned to gunk blocking channels and sticking needles in there place, thus flooding of the carb seen as fuel comming out of it like you had.

The way to get rid of this gunk it to clean it with thinner. It will dissolve the gunk and free the needles. I had to open up the carb and fix it. We can guid you but I think the manual is very good on this. Just work clean and have everyting spread out as taken out in that order. Take pictures and assemble after cleaning in reversed order. It's not that hard to do.

 

On the sludge section......and I do not want to scare you.....

When I overhauled my engine it was looking the same from the inside as yours. Look at my photobucket pictures on what had happened with my crankshaft because of the sludge (4th picture on the top row), its worn down the crankshaft over 1mm and a camshaft with hardly any lift on two cams. The sludge is not only in the places where you can see it, but also in the places where it can hurt the engine. It's the same as a human body blood supply. The sludge blocks the oil channel some where. Then in that part there is no oil going. Thus no lubrication, it runs dry and wears.

Modern oil is designed to prevent sludge and to dissolve slugde. This means that when it does the job in your angine it can break lose a larger piece.

In my engine that is what happened at more than one place, is the way I bought the car. For me it ment I had to change $$$$$ every moving part inside the engine except for the rocker arms and shaft.

I understand you want to drive. But keep in mind it still can hurt your engine as a time bomb in every oil channel in the engine.

[Dave72dt]

Normally you push directly on the valve itself with a spring compressor and the one you have is stout enough. Valve keepers routinely stick and a light tap on one side or other of the retainer will usually free them and allow full compression of the spring. A straight set of jaws on the compressor may work better for you than the offset. The valves are tough, you'll have to work at it to scratch them.

[soth122003]

If you are worrie about scatching them with the compressor, put a quarter or a half dollar coin over the valve head and press againts that, As was mentioned before use light taps to loosen the valve from the keeprs. you might try using some Seafom cleaner with the oil pan off and flush that crud in the valve area down to a drip pan under the car. When that is all cleaned up, crawl under the car and check the crankshaft, rods and bearing journals for excessive play by turniing the engine by hand a little at a time and feeling for the play. If its there rebuild the engine.

 

Also use some Seafoam cleaner and add it to the oil to flush your engine out. Otherwise go for the rbuild. Also with the head off, turn the engine by hand and when the pistons hit bottom wipe a little oil on the cylinder walls

 

Joe

[William Davey]

Perry,

  The key to your problem is in your statement that the spring and the valve BOTH rose when you tightened the tool.  In your 2nd photo the valve appears to be wide open because the wood is not directly on top of the valve.  The tool will compress the spring - you've proven that.  Now you just need to keep the valve closed.

[perrymedik]

DutchEdwing:  

 

About the carb:  

 

Fortunatly for me, I had sent it off to be reconditioned so it is squeaky clean.  I did take the top of it off to verify that the float was working correctly and set correctly and it appears to be so.  I also verity that the two balls were working as designed and found no evidence of leak by.

 

The current problem with it is that there is supposed to be a plug in the bottom of the Main Metering Vent shaft.  Mine is missing this so every time the fuel begins to flow it just drains out the bottom of the hole and I'm pretty sure it's not making it to the engine.  I am still trying to locate a place that can sell me that plug.  I stuffed an eraser end in it as a temp measure to see if I could get the motor to start.  Obviously I did not.

 

I am in need of finding a manual or guide of some sort for that Carb (Carter BB D6H1) so that I can read up on it and get smart on how it is supposed to work and how to set the adjustments for the first time.  The Service Manual does a pretty good job of describing how to fine tune it with the motor running, but as I don't have a running motor I can't follow it just yet.  Initial settings are what I am in need of the most at this point with it.

 

About the Sludge:

 

The sludge scares me too.  Thus far I have pulled and cleaned out the Oil Pan and the Oil Pan Strainer.  I have pulled the valve covers and cleaned out that area very thoroughly, and once I get the Springs and valves out I will be able to clean it much better.  After that I plan on rinsing the whole area down with kerosene, then pulling the oil pan (which I have already drained all the fresh oil out of for storage and re-use) and cleaning it again.  While it is off, I will clean out everything I can from the underside, wipe it all down, check for any scoring, and bath it all in a fresh oil wipe for good measure.  I am hoping that these measure, along with running a quart of ATF Fluid in the oil will ensure that the engine is in good working order and ready to run and warm up.  Then after running for a while at operating temperature I plan on doing another oil and filter change.  Not sure where else the oil will hide and be gummed up. But if there is a hole or a tube it either has or will be run with a pipe cleaner, brush or compressed air.  

 

I am thinking that this a good plan.  Thoughts?

 

Dave72dt:  I took your suggesting and switch out the jaws to the straight ones.  Still no luck.  Tapped everywhere that could be tapped and still nothing.  These suckers are in there good!!

 

Soth122003: I like your idea of cleaning everything with the pan is off.  I'm going to do that.  I'll also check for play.  I hadn't thought to do that, but since i'm down there I might as well!  I'll pick up some Seafoam for the oil and fuel next time I'm at the parts store.

 

William Davey:  Agreed.  The problem is that when I place the compressor over the valve and compress it just bows and slides off.  I have different style compressor coming that will allow me to raise the spring and give me unencumbered access to the top of the valve.  I plan on tapping the valve back down with a rubber dead blow mallet to get the keepers to release.  All holes have been plugged so that they don't drop down into the pan, and I'll have a magnet on stand by to catch them so that they don't escape to somewhere that I won't find time.

But it's been a day fella's.  You should take a look a the the post I just put up under my Cooling System Flush topic.  I'm just sitting here shaking my head! LOL!

Thanks for all the help!!  

 

This thing will run one day because I've spent more on trying to get it to run then I can get for it at the scrap yard!

[1950 Special Deluxe]

Here is a post on rebuilding them with a good link to youtube.

http://www.oldplymouths.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1031&st=0&p=4303&hl=d6h1&fromsearch=1entry4303

I followed these instructions when I rebuilt mine.

Edited November 10, 2014 by 1950 Special Deluxe

[Young Ed]

If you sent the carb off to be redone and it came back without that plug you should contact the rebuilder.

[Don Coatney]

As I have said many times failure is not an option. Carry on with the good work. I have found that a rifle cleaning kit works well when cleaning out the oil galley and other oil passages in the engine. Suggest the next time you remove the oil pan you also remove a rod bearing cap for inspection and possibly a main bearing cap too. It has been my experience that a rubber or dead blow mallet is not the best tool to free stuck valves. As I said a large drift punch and mid to small hammer gives a much crisper blow to break free the carbon buildup.

[Merle Coggins]

If you sent the carb off to be redone and it came back without that plug you should contact the rebuilder.

I agree. I'd be contacting the place that rebuilt the carb about the missing plug.

[_shel_ny]

One more way to get that valve retainer, and the keepers loose is to rotate the engine to raise the valve. Once raised, block the retainer and valve at the raised height with a solid object on each side. Rotate the engine to lower the tappet. Play whack a mole with the valve.

 

With the valve spring compressor that you have coming in you will still be limited as to the amount of hitting you can do on the valve without stressing the tool and having it spread and slide off.

 

 

EDIT: cutting wheel on an angle grinder also works Fast too   I have spare retainers, and keepers.

Edited November 10, 2014 by shel_ny

[Dave72dt]

The straight jaws won't apply any more pressure than the offset ones but will give you better access to tapping on the retainer.  You're not tapping hard enough is my guess.  Shel's  "whack a mole" may be your best option since tapping uphill is tough.  A piece of pipe cut to length and the side cut out of it to slip into place and a wood dowel or plastic hammer would work well.

[perrymedik]

1950 Special Deluxe:  Awesome Link!!  I had found bits and pieces of those pages through various searches, but not all in one convenient place!  I had contacted Collectors Auto Supply with the part number (14-37-2 on the diagram) from my parts book.  The book listed two different numbers, and they didn't have either one in their system.  Not that they were in stock, but that they have never carried them.  Square 1 again. LOL!

 

Young Ed / Merle Coggins: When I had the Carb rebuilt 3 years ago I apparently didn't do a good job putting the paperwork somewhere safe.  So 3 years, 1 household move and 2 deployments later . . . . . .  and i've got nothing in the way of reminding me where I sent it.  But man-oh-man, I wish I did.  Giving them a call would have been the very first thing I did!  I'm going to take the carb into NAPA tomorrow and see what they can rummage up for me.  Fingers crossed!

 

Shel_ny: The whack-a-mole idea you have is intriguing.  I'm going to give that a try tomorrow (and see what I can break).  As for the whole angle grinder comment. . . .  you hush that kind of talk! LOL!  I'll be up in Mass. in a few weeks.  Keep that talk up and I may swing by your house and steal that part I need for my Carb in the middle of the nigh! Ha ha!

[Dodgeb4ya]

I see you have asked all the same questions about your car on several online sites.

Which one  seems to be the most friendly and helpful?

[_shel_ny]

Shel_ny:   As for the whole angle grinder comment. . . .  you hush that kind of talk! LOL!  I'll be up in Mass. in a few weeks.  Keep that talk up and I may swing by your house and steal that part I need for my Carb in the middle of the nigh! Ha ha!

 

Angle grinder is not really a crazy idea. I actually did get one out that way. Cut the retainer. Engine was not in a vehicle. You may have room to do that being that you are dealing with the #1 cylinder. Your spring is broken, so no worry about damaging it. Possibly just cutting the spring up more would give you some relief to get at the retainer and keepers.