Electrolysis Rust Removal

[DJ194950]

http://hollythehomemaker.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-to-make-washing-soda-redux.html

 

How to make soda wash from baking soda. If as some have said can be hard to find.

Pretty easy to do and Cheap!!

 

DJ

Edited May 28, 2014 by DJ194950

[Joe Flanagan]

After reading up on this subject a bit, I came across the advice to put a 12 volt battery in series between the charger and the tank. I did that, and I now have a very efficient electrolysis process going. As others said, the black practically comes off when sprayed with a hose. The pieces are coming out very clean. 

[wilmacmike]

Hey guys, a few words of CAUTION.

 

Those of us in the Hydrogen Generator industry know that the gases coming off the top of your containers ARE  very explosive!

The mixture of baking soda and water lit up with electrical current pulls two components out of the water. They are oxygen and hydrogen. The hydrogen can collect in a closed space such as above your rafters in your garage,in an attic etc. Be very careful with any open flames, and or sparks in the area.

 

If your doing it outside or in a very well ventillated area then not to worry. If you doubt me and are the very brave type, take a micro torch or something simular and light the bubbles as they rise up to the top and pop.  They will make a loud bang as they are lit with the flame.  If the collected gas should be trapped as mentioned above you could have a very large explosion and damage as well as major injuries.

 

There have been some who have blown their garage roofs off after an explosion. One fella in our industry blew up his spare room of the house.  Just be safe. 

 

As a matter of fact I have some chrome trim on my 1937 Desoto dash, front and rear window garnish moldings I think I will try yourset ups with.

 

My problem is, I will be flaming the bubbles and making very loud machine gun noises as the process removes my rust.  Fun, fun, fun....

 

Again be safe,

Mike

[Joe Flanagan]

I read that about the gases that are released in the process. I did outside in my driveway.

[Ulu]

I've just started doing this and discovered a few things. I've been experimenting with this rusty battery tray and a plastic tank with about 15 gallons in it. This was a graduation from just doing small bits in a 5 gal bucket. 

 

I'm using 1 to 2 tablespoons of sodium carbonate (washing soda) per gallon. I have a 10 amp charger similar to Don's shown above. 

 

The two brass rods carry the sacrificial anodes, and the battery tray is hung from the middle (steel) rod. Here's a night time photo in the tank. It's equipped with an old florescent light, as I use it at night mostly. It's bubbling nicely but has actually slowed down from its peak about 30 mins previous.

 

 

I was using old bolts and plates and angles of 1/8" to 1/2" thick for anodes, and with 8 anodes in the tank my charger was just barely coming off the peg: maybe 1 amp draw. Then I read about using sheetmetal anodes, and I remembered about the Hall Effect, where charge accumulates on the edges of thin plates.

 

In the photo above I've just tonight removed all the thick anodes and replaced them with 6 of these--these are iron laminations from the core of an old electric motor which I'd stripped for other parts:

 

 

They are only .025" thick and have a huge perimeter due to the stamped shape. How the Hall Effect works is that like charges repel: so when you charge anything the charges rush away from each other as far as possible and try to jump off at the edges. The more edges, the more charges are exposed to the solution of the tank and this can really speed things up. These things really upped the performance of the tank, and my charger started delivering almost 5 amps to the tank, which is what you'd expect it to do charging a big battery. Circulation in the tank increased about 5x, and voltage in the solution near the anodes went from about 4 volts to over 6 volts.

 

My tank did in 2 hours what was formerly taking over 2 days, due in part to the need for frequent de-crusting of the anodes. When they start to build up big rusty barnacles, their performance falls to crap.

 

I've actually been working on this battery tray for a week, because it has layers of lumpy paint and rust and dirt, partly covered with something hard that might be POR-15 or similar. It was all in poor shape, chipped, scratched, and rusting all over (very heavily on the underside) so I hit it quick with a hand wire brush and stuck it in the tank.

 

Where there is anything painted over rust, the rust is blowing off at the edges of the paint, and it eventually falls off in big wisps.

[Joe Flanagan]

I'll be doing this again soon myself. Both the front and rear gravel guards on my Plymouth need to go in the tank. 

[Robert Horne]

I had a 50 gallon barrel on the back side, (shady side), of my garage for doing this process.

 

My battery charger was only showing about 1 amp draw.       The process was slow, but

 

did a great job of converting the rust to a black substance that came of easy with the wire brush.

 

I moved the 50 gallon barrel to the sunny side of my shop, so the water would be warmer

 

during the day.      The battery charger went to a 2 amp draw with my same set up, and the

 

process goes quicker now...

[Robert Horne]

I forgot to mention, the 50 gallon barrel is plastic..

[ssnowden]

This guy was serious about his setup. 

http://1bad6t.com/rust_removal.html

 

Edited November 6, 2014 by ssnowden

[Ulu]

I'd think rebar would work well because of all the edges.

 

Well this AM, the tank had slowed from cold and smut. Current had fallen to about 2 amps & the tray looks much cleaner.

 

I rinsed the anodes quickly and stuck them back and current jumped back to almost 4 amps.

 

There's still some paint with rust under it, that is still cooking off.

 

Of course disk grinder would have blasted this stuff off in short order, but at this point the experiment is more important than the speed of my project's progress.

[Ulu]

My next tank needs to be larger and stouter. I want to dip a couple VW wheels for a trailer project. I was going to just buy some Rubbermaid consumer thing at Lowes, but  I'd rather have something more industrial, even if it's used. I don't know where to buy the stuff without getting ripped off though. It's $100+ for a 55 gal plastic drum with lid, or maybe $80 for one I'd have to cut the top from.

 

I'm thinking ag chemical companies would be the place to find them, except I suspect the EPA is making them account for every one as hazardous waste.

 

But I dunno. Are any of you guys chem sales or maybe gentlemen farmers who would know this stuff?

[Grdpa's 50 Dodge]

on the plastic barrels issue,,,,no way I would spend that.  In the midwest we can get them for free.  or 5-10 bucks if advertised.

 

A farm chem dealer a good source,,also here a ice cream maker has them also.  Big plant they get supplies and make ice cream.

 

I will bet if you keep an eye out for a while you may see exactly what your looking for.  I HAD several and had trouble giving them away

[Merle Coggins]

Maybe you need to find someone that has empty 250 gallon totes. The kind that are in an aluminum cage for support. I'm sure there's someone near you that has some old ones they'd like to get rid of.

[DJ194950]

Ca. is not like most of the USA. Deposits-recycle everything. Nothings cheap but it is avail. at the recyclers for a price! 

 

DJ

[Don Coatney]

Twelve bucks somewhere in Visalia.

 

"I purchased 3 of them yesterday, and worked out how much I would need to cut from each.  I paid $12 a drum from a gentleman in Visalia."  

 

http://www.backyardcrop.com/?p=143

 

Having spent many years working in the food industry I had access to many of these drums for free. When I lived near Buffalo I used them to make a raft for the pond.

 

[JerseyHarold]

I'd try posting a wanted ad on Craigslist and Freecycle (www.freecycle.org)  if you have a group local to you.

[Ulu]

Well I decided that this $12 bin from Lowes was big enough to do my trailer wheels, and Lowes is on the way home. 

It's 32 gallons & squat of shape & worked out OK so far, but not nearly as sturdy as a chemical drum.

 

I used these laminations as anodes.

Even when they look like this they still seem to be kicking out the bubbles & the small tank is running well.

 

There's 6 in the small tank & 8 in the new one, and the system is running both tanks in parallel from one little charger at about 5 amps. This battery charger has been with me 30 years now & has held up OK. 

 

Here I'm cooking a 14" wheel.

 

After 15 minutes, it was going very well, considering that this was at night and only about 60F out.

 

 

 

 

[Ulu]

No pics, but that first trailer wheel came out pretty nice.

 

I hit it with a water hose, then dried it & covered it in some Zip-strip to remove the smut & any remaining paint. I let the Zip-strip work in the sun a bit, scrubbed the wheel off with a stiff brush, then hit it lightly with coarse Scotchbrite. Also I needed to straighten some minor dings in the lip, so I massaged it gently with a 4 lb hammer. I cleaned the burrs with a bit of sandpaper, and now it's nearly ready.

 

There's still a little rust that had been under paint & petrified rubber, so I'll dip this wheel overnight again before painting.  In the meantime the second wheel is in the tank, and bubbling nicely.

 

BTW, while my old battery charger works great for this, my newer "fully automatic" Ship & Shore battery charger won't work for this unless it senses a battery in the circuit that's putting out at least a few volts. The tank setup itself is indeed a wet cell, and by my measurements it puts out about 1.1 volts at moderate temperatures; but that's just not enough for the Ship & Shore to try and "charge" it.

 

I found a friend of mine who has some big plastic barrels for me, so I'll be setting up a free 55 gal tank soon.

 

Finally, those lams I'm using for anodes are working great. I found by just adding more lams to the + side I can bring the current draw up to 10 amps easily, and by adjusting the number of them I can make the tank run at whatever current i wish.

 

I don't want to fry my old charger so I didn't run it at 10 amps very long. I've set it up to run at 6 amps which seems to be just fine.

[Don Coatney]

My old charger is a Schauer. It failed once about 20 years ago (when it was about ten years old) and I sent it back to the factory for repairs at no charge (sorry about the unintended pun) to me.

[Niel Hoback]

They fixed your charger at no charge?  That's a very positive development!  No negatives on their revues, eh? 

[Ulu]

Hey, I had a Schauer too. I burned it up before I got the Schumacher. Never considered getting it fixed though.

 

I hooked it up backwards once, and within 3 seconds it was cooked.  

[Ulu]

OK, I got the third tank up. It's the 55 gal barrel in the foreground. This was an orange juice barrel (free from a friend) before I sliced the top off with a skilsaw.

 

You can also see the 32 gal blue drum in the background, and the 27 gal tan bin on the bench. They're all about 3/4 full & running 24/7.

 

 

I have these hooked in parallel, to one 12v charger and it pulls 4 to 6 amps depending on the temperature and how clean the anodes are.

 

<EDIT> Hah! Lots of junk in that photo.

That big lump under the silver cloth is my buffing wheel. Under the bench are my old blue toy chest, which is 53 years old now. The silver one it sits on is on casters, so I can roll these around. My dad built this in 1964 as a footlocker, from GI plywood he scored, while stationed near Dong Ha Vietnam. He was a forward traffic controller at some tiny radar station.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Ulu

[Plymouthy Adams]

sandblaster does amazing work, quicker..keeps product dry and prep time for applying primer...just a quick blow down. wipe and tack..blamo you got it prepped..just my personal take

[Ulu]

I've sandblasted a few things. I got to run a 600 HP blaster once, after-hours at a local steel fab co.

 

I sandblasted the Scout chassis back in 1973. Even with a 100 HP compressor it took all day, used a lot of sand and air, and I had to shovel up all the sand when I was done.

 

Electrolytic de-rusting has its drawbacks, but it's happening right now while I'm at work. It's slow, particularly outdoors in cold weather, but it's also relentless. There's not much cleanup, and I'm not buying gas or sand. I'm using less current than one 100 watt light bulb.

 

The chassis of Edith is getting sandblasted, but I'll hire it out.

 

Right now I'm de-rusting the wheels for the trailer I'll build, to get the chassis to that blaster.

[fstfish66]

interesting  topic, need to  do a really rusty  bumper